Are we going to end up with a pop gun attack?

[Zatara]

@davek

Decent post mate.

and yeah IF Lukaku goes and the sum of ourt business post him in a attacking sense adding Sandro and say Gray then we will be up the creek without a paddle unless Sandro hits the ground running and his development last season continues for example- which honestly we won't know until during the season

But thats the worst case scenario - and actually would be shocking if it was the case scenario given we appear to be trying to add real depth to the squad so far.

The other side is that IF we do sell Lukaku for close to a world record fee, then much like a few other clubs around the world have done (Athletico for starters for the past 10 years or so) we will be a very very attractive step for any ambitious striker,they will see what happened with Lukaku at this team - going from a reject who was loaned out to West Brom to a player who walks in for a massive fee to a top CL level team.

IF he does go my estaimate would be that we would add a proven experienced player in this league - the likes of a Giroud, Vardy type.

and we would add another younger striker with a massive potential to him, be that Dembele, Dolberg, Batshuayi, Iheanacho or another from the continent probably using about 45-50m to do both pieces of business, we'd then add another wide forward type (like mane was) be that Berardi or Balde etc for an additional part of the Lukaku funds - which i think we will add that type anyway btw)

So add proven goals with one signing, the massive potential offinding the next Lukaku with a proportion and to give us depth we've lacked for years there, and to add another pacey goal scorer who can play across the front three.

IF he does go my estaimate would be that we would add a proven experienced player in this league - the likes of a Giroud, Vardy type.




@bluestevon
Great point mate. We are signing all these young hungry players but we need experience of the league and quality, to supplement them.
I know giroud would be a fine addition to the squad, but I get the feeling koeman is after pace and a high energy pressing game from the front.
For that reason I'd like Vardy and dembele. Alongside Sandro that is a formidable front 3
Sandro Dembele Vardy

When the RS signed Coutinho and then Firminho I said at the time they would be top players for them, real ball players and after a settling in period they have been really instrumental in getting them up the table from the abyss they were sinking into. Even with an absolute dross defence teams need to be wary of pushing players forward against them.

What I would personally like to see is;
Pickford -- Able to pick out players with pinpoint 'long passes'
A centre back signed who can make Koeman-esque passes into the forward line to mix it up a bit
We've seen Coleman and Kenny (in the u20s) bombing forward now we need someone to take over from Baines on the left
Klaassen being used as a weapon with runs into the box taking defenders away

If we have those above threats from non-forward players then it gives other teams something to think about.

I think the only reason to have a Giroud/Gray type hold up player is to stick them on the bench as a plan b. They aren't top top top players and as @davek rightly states we need top quality to get into the champions league with this type of setup. Man Utd missed out even when being ultra defensive and having the best lump around in a slow Zlatan. you saw the difference when he went out injured.

Personally, I don't see the logic of a Vardy either. Sandro has speed and fantastic movement and if we added 2 more players of his type it creates mayhem as defenders get pulled all over the place. Sandro has top finishing ability as well so a couple more like him (Dembele) and we have 3 targets to aim for when attacking.

I think 'possibly' were looking at Sigurdsson so (if barkley signs) we have a ball player on either flank and then we also have faster direct players like Lookman, Sandro,Bolasie so we can change tactics instantly.

I do wonder who will be the focal point of the attack as if we are going down this type of route then I think we do need a spearhead

Dembele at Celtic has shown he knows where the net is. Is really fast as well so I imagine it would be him or Dolberg if were going to spend big.

 

[ExpatinBangkok]

I've wanted this exact approach for years, and Lukaku has never fit the bill. So I'm perfectly happy with not going for a like for like Lukaku replacement for a few reasons.

First, it's impossible - Lukaku is the best at what he does in my view. There's no point trying to replace him in that way, as it's a downgrade no matter what you do.

Second, there's a ceiling on what you can achieve playing football the way we do with Lukaku. He could bag 35 goals and we could still finish 6th, because we're incredibly predictable in what we do.

I agree we probably don't have the class to play well and get results with current personnel, but we're only a striker and an inside forward away from being able to do so. Schneiderlin, Gana, Klaasen, Barkley are all either top drawer or potentially top drawer players. Lookman could explode into life next year and so on.

So that has to be the aim - play winning football based on movement. Lukaku isn't conducive to that, and for that reason I'd be actually pretty annoyed if we didn't cash in and sell this summer while money is booming into the league and clubs are foolishly looking for 'goalscorers' when the reality is the game has moved on from that.

Giroud would be an instant upgrade on Lukaku and would double our overall effectiveness in attack as a team. That type of player should be the aim for us.

Yes I agree 'winning football based on movement' is critical but isn't Giroud too slow for that? (I know I'm banging on about this, but am I only one concerned?) but based on koeman signing I think he does value speed which is why I don't think Giroud would be a priority for him.

 

[davek]

Well thats another reason for people having a pop at Lukaku and claiming he "gave up" near the end, he was coming off the back of the Euros, played a whole season basically up top on his own for 90minutes every game, yes maybe he did "give up", but fatigue will have certainly been a factor.

Koeman will employ the full press, its how he likes to play, he will expect his 3 front liners to press and the midfield, the wing backs will also press high up the pitch.

You say you are seeing things, you aint seeing anything, your assuming the lack of links in the media to suggest that we are just sitting on our hands. We WILL have targets lined up, we WILL move for these targets once the Barkley/Lukaku saga is settled, there is probably a desire within the club for us to retain both, I personally think both will move on, but we will have replacements ready to go.

The players we have signed and are going to sign all help the squad, Sandro, Klaasen will no doubt slot into the first 11 and of course Pickford, as ive said, we havent spent a penny of the Lukaku or Barkley sale, cos neither has happened, so if they are moved on, they will be replaced.

Lukaku will be replaced up top, Barkley will be replaced in the middle and we will also have money left over to improve other aspects of the squad, as normal, as you have all through this window, you have soaked the bed and taken us all to 1st Sept. Put that date in your Diary, cos im going to utterly ram you everywhere on that date.

Ha Ha Ha.

Seriously though: dont mistake financial capacity to go in our usual direction if Lukaku is sold. My point here is that Koeman is going to draw some very sharp conclusions about what he expects from a strike force and that will change completely the way we approach attacking.

There will be a methodological change next season, I'm convinced of it.

 

[Roger Milla]

I think if we sign a striker who can control the ball, has the ability to play with his back to goal, is able to bring others into play and score between 15 - 20 goals then the team could afford to play higher up the pitch and goals would be spread out more throughout the team.

 

[devogue]

Ha Ha Ha.

Seriously though: dont mistake financial capacity to go in our usual direction if Lukaku is sold. My point here is that Koeman is going to draw some very sharp conclusions about what he expects from a strike force and that will change completely the way we approach attacking.

There will be a methodological change next season, I'm convinced of it.

Ha Ha Ha.

 

[Goat]

Ha Ha Ha.

Seriously though: dont mistake financial capacity to go in our usual direction if Lukaku is sold. My point here is that Koeman is going to draw some very sharp conclusions about what he expects from a strike force and that will change completely the way we approach attacking.

There will be a methodological change next season, I'm convinced of it.

The only change will be a change in the players and players that are able to play The Koeman Way will be brought into the side.

We will press all over the pitch, we will attack at pace and we will blow teams away before they even know what day it is.

 

[davek]

I've wanted this exact approach for years, and Lukaku has never fit the bill. So I'm perfectly happy with not going for a like for like Lukaku replacement for a few reasons.

First, it's impossible - Lukaku is the best at what he does in my view. There's no point trying to replace him in that way, as it's a downgrade no matter what you do.

Second, there's a ceiling on what you can achieve playing football the way we do with Lukaku. He could bag 35 goals and we could still finish 6th, because we're incredibly predictable in what we do.

I agree we probably don't have the class to play well and get results with current personnel, but we're only a striker and an inside forward away from being able to do so. Schneiderlin, Gana, Klaasen, Barkley are all either top drawer or potentially top drawer players. Lookman could explode into life next year and so on.

So that has to be the aim - play winning football based on movement. Lukaku isn't conducive to that, and for that reason I'd be actually pretty annoyed if we didn't cash in and sell this summer while money is booming into the league and clubs are foolishly looking for 'goalscorers' when the reality is the game has moved on from that.

Giroud would be an instant upgrade on Lukaku and would double our overall effectiveness in attack as a team. That type of player should be the aim for us.

Fair points.

I honestly think Koeman is going to use the departure of Barkley and Lukaku to throw all the pieces up in the air and see where they land. This will be a season of mass experimentation in terms of players and style of play.

Me? I caution against too much tampering with the way we set up - especially with target men.

Three pronged attacks and False nines are fools gold.

 

[Groucho]

I mentioned in the summer transfer thread my concern that with the very likely departure of Lukaku we are faced with an almighty struggle next season to get a striker in to fill the massive chasm he'll leave. So far we have not been linked with the type of marquee signing that we could reasonably believe could come in and take up at least most of the slack in terms of getting on the scoresheet as often as RL has in his time here. Sandro may or may not come in. However, I dont see him as a type that will lead the line in the fashion that we as a club have been used to with our tradition. The existing players we have upfront are unimpressive. For one they cant be adapted to the role of an out and out forward and for another they look pretty limited in what they do in their 'proper job', be that Bolasie and Lookman attacking from out wide or Calvert-Lewin loitering without intent in behind the striker/final third.

Here's my suspicion: I think Koeman will forsake going for a like for like replacement for Lukaku this summer. He looks to me to be thinking of going with a type of attacking unit adopted over the park and adopted elsewhere: a high pressing front three with an advanced MF (probably Klaassens) to augment the attack by making forward runs into the box.

I think this will be madness for us. First, we wont have the class to pull that one off: Lallana/Firmino/Mane + Coutinho are very good quality. That's how they blitzed the PL in the first half of last season and picked up the points that eventually seen them over the CL spot line. Our front 3+1 would be nowhere near that level of quality. Second, we have a lot more games this season and what happened to Liverpool (and what happens to other teams who adopt a manic high press) over the course of the season would come home to roost here too: we'd have a core first team on its knees and/or dropping down with injuries by late winter.

Anyway, that's my thoughts/fears on what I believe this summer's attacking incomings are being prioritised for. Hopefully Koeman goes out and blows that out of the water with a Giroud signing, but I really think we are headed into 2017/18 with a re-shaped and dangerous departure from what we traditionally have gone for before.

Thoughts?

I remain hopeful that Sandro Ramirez will;

1/ be a very very hot talent and ease the loss

2/ actually sign for us

 

[Goat]

Fair points.

I honestly think Koeman is going to use the departure of Barkley and Lukaku to throw all the pieces up in the air and see where they land. This will be a season of mass experimentation in terms of players and style of play.

Me? I caution against too much tampering with the way we set up - especially with target men.

Three pronged attacks and False nines are fools gold.

You spent all last season wanking yourself off about Plopp and how his wonderful team played football and yet here you are suggesting that Koeman will do the same and complaining about it.

I mean do you just post and hope that nobody even remembers the things you do?!?!?!????

 

[davek]

When the RS signed Coutinho and then Firminho I said at the time they would be top players for them, real ball players and after a settling in period they have been really instrumental in getting them up the table from the abyss they were sinking into. Even with an absolute dross defence teams need to be wary of pushing players forward against them.

What I would personally like to see is;
Pickford -- Able to pick out players with pinpoint 'long passes'
A centre back signed who can make Koeman-esque passes into the forward line to mix it up a bit
We've seen Coleman and Kenny (in the u20s) bombing forward now we need someone to take over from Baines on the left
Klaassen being used as a weapon with runs into the box taking defenders away

If we have those above threats from non-forward players then it gives other teams something to think about.

I think the only reason to have a Giroud/Gray type hold up player is to stick them on the bench as a plan b. They aren't top top top players and as @davek rightly states we need top quality to get into the champions league with this type of setup. Man Utd missed out even when being ultra defensive and having the best lump around in a slow Zlatan. you saw the difference when he went out injured.

Personally, I don't see the logic of a Vardy either. Sandro has speed and fantastic movement and if we added 2 more players of his type it creates mayhem as defenders get pulled all over the place. Sandro has top finishing ability as well so a couple more like him (Dembele) and we have 3 targets to aim for when attacking.

I think 'possibly' were looking at Sigurdsson so (if barkley signs) we have a ball player on either flank and then we also have faster direct players like Lookman, Sandro,Bolasie so we can change tactics instantly.

I do wonder who will be the focal point of the attack as if we are going down this type of route then I think we do need a spearhead

Dembele at Celtic has shown he knows where the net is. Is really fast as well so I imagine it would be him or Dolberg if were going to spend big.

Fair point on United picking up after Zlatan limped out. However, they had the quality of Rashford, Martial, Lingard + Pogba backing them up from advanced MF positions. Our front three + one would not be up to that.

 

[Zatara]

Just going off the players we have (likely to be here) and those linked...

Ball Players -- Barkley / Sigurdsson
Direct wingers 'types' -- Lookman / Mirallas / Bolasie
Pacy Forwards -- Sandro / Dembele
Target Men -- Gray / Dolberg

Looking at Mirallas as a short term stop gap for Bolasie...that's quite a variety.

Dembele/Barkley -- Dolberg/Gray -- Sandro/Sigurdsson
​

That looks really exciting to me and still Lookman and Bolasie to add in. Cost is about the same as Lukaku's transfer fee.

 

[Lanolin]

I've wanted this exact approach for years, and Lukaku has never fit the bill. So I'm perfectly happy with not going for a like for like Lukaku replacement for a few reasons.

First, it's impossible - Lukaku is the best at what he does in my view. There's no point trying to replace him in that way, as it's a downgrade no matter what you do.

Second, there's a ceiling on what you can achieve playing football the way we do with Lukaku. He could bag 35 goals and we could still finish 6th, because we're incredibly predictable in what we do.

I agree we probably don't have the class to play well and get results with current personnel, but we're only a striker and an inside forward away from being able to do so. Schneiderlin, Gana, Klaasen, Barkley are all either top drawer or potentially top drawer players. Lookman could explode into life next year and so on.

So that has to be the aim - play winning football based on movement. Lukaku isn't conducive to that, and for that reason I'd be actually pretty annoyed if we didn't cash in and sell this summer while money is booming into the league and clubs are foolishly looking for 'goalscorers' when the reality is the game has moved on from that.

Giroud would be an instant upgrade on Lukaku and would double our overall effectiveness in attack as a team. That type of player should be the aim for us.

I get the point you're making but the game hasn't really 'moved on from goalscorers' has it?

I mean, you don't want someone who can only tap them in from 2 yards, but it's still hugely important to have someone in your team who can score 20 goals if you want to win things. Last years top 3 all have someone who scored at least 20 goals, so why do we think we don't need one?

To me, the key is to have someone you can rely on to put the ball in the net and have others in the team contributing regularly - they're not mutually exclusive, as the best teams show.

 

[davek]

You spent all last season wanking yourself off about Plopp and how his wonderful team played football and yet here you are suggesting that Koeman will do the same and complaining about it.

I mean do you just post and hope that nobody even remembers the things you do?!?!?!????

No mate. I recognised all last season that apart from their attack - which was quality and was fantastic when the wheels weren't coming off - they had a manager plaiting sawdust.

 

[Tubey]

Yes I agree 'winning football based on movement' is critical but isn't Giroud too slow for that? (I know I'm banging on about this, but am I only one concerned?) but based on koeman signing I think he does value speed which is why I don't think Giroud would be a priority for him.

Nah, as it's intelligent movement and a willingness to show for a ball to feet or make it stick when hit long. It allows other people to make runs off his work too.

 

[Zatara]

Fair point on United picking up after Zlatan limped out. However, they had the quality of Rashford, Martial, Lingard + Pogba backing them up from advanced MF positions. Our front three + one would not be up to that.

In an attacking/goals sense;
Pogba / Klaassen
Lingard / Sandro
Martial / Dembele
Rashford / Dolberg

It's doable.