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Black History Month

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Ferguson1878 said:
can you explain it to me cos i think im way off
Click to expand...

Looking forward to what @Wizard has to say, but I'll give it a go. I want to start by clarifying that privilege applies broadly more than it applies individually, but there is always a specific element of individual privilege as well. The real distinction (or confusion) is between the individual and the broader class privilege and I'm not sure I will make that clear, so soz in advance.

I'll start on the individual level: Yank, male, white, mid-40s. On the world level my standard of living is exceptionally high. Easy access to clean water, basic utilities, education, and healthcare (although this is outrageously expensive now). Parent were both very poor by US standards but had most of the same access (privilege) and did well for themselves and their kids. My dad spent 40 years in an industry unrelated to his education because he "had a college degree." Now I'm in the same industry, largely because my father was in it. In fact, nearly every job I've had has come through a direct recommendation from someone who knew both me and the people hiring. I'd like to think I was qualified for at least most of these jobs, but the easy conclusion is that networks matter in life.

Neither me nor my father have ever been denied employment, access to basic utility/education/water, access to housing or financing, or similar gatekeeping due to the color of our skin. I'm not saying that anyone we've met, know, or worked with is specifically racist, but it's clear that the systems around us have been built in a way that allow easy/-ier access to white males than, for instance, black males. This is the sort of systemic bias/privilege that people are talking about. And that's the sort of privilege that allows some people a much easier path to success (whatever this means) than others.

I argue with a friend all of the time about this (which is weird because his wife is Latina and he can't see it): he says there's never been a time in America where black men can be so successful in so many ways, based on merit alone. That's true, but I counter that none of that success prevents the same black man from being shot by a cop during a traffic stop.

I suspect many from the UK will argue against this line of thinking for at least two reasons: (1) American racism is far worse and (2) it's so hard to be a poor white man in the UK that it's not any better/worse for non-white males. To that I'll simply give two responses: (1) yes it's terrible here but don't be blind to your own national sins and (2) if you feel this way then you might need to find that 2nd black friend (if you even know any black males you'd call friend) so you can get some perspective on what it's like not being you.

Finally, a rhetorical question for you, especially if you are an English male: have you ever had a non-white boss? For far too many this answer is simply No.
 
SerenityNigh said:
Looking forward to what @Wizard has to say, but I'll give it a go. I want to start by clarifying that privilege applies broadly more than it applies individually, but there is always a specific element of individual privilege as well. The real distinction (or confusion) is between the individual and the broader class privilege and I'm not sure I will make that clear, so soz in advance.

I'll start on the individual level: Yank, male, white, mid-40s. On the world level my standard of living is exceptionally high. Easy access to clean water, basic utilities, education, and healthcare (although this is outrageously expensive now). Parent were both very poor by US standards but had most of the same access (privilege) and did well for themselves and their kids. My dad spent 40 years in an industry unrelated to his education because he "had a college degree." Now I'm in the same industry, largely because my father was in it. In fact, nearly every job I've had has come through a direct recommendation from someone who knew both me and the people hiring. I'd like to think I was qualified for at least most of these jobs, but the easy conclusion is that networks matter in life.

Neither me nor my father have ever been denied employment, access to basic utility/education/water, access to housing or financing, or similar gatekeeping due to the color of our skin. I'm not saying that anyone we've met, know, or worked with is specifically racist, but it's clear that the systems around us have been built in a way that allow easy/-ier access to white males than, for instance, black males. This is the sort of systemic bias/privilege that people are talking about. And that's the sort of privilege that allows some people a much easier path to success (whatever this means) than others.

I argue with a friend all of the time about this (which is weird because his wife is Latina and he can't see it): he says there's never been a time in America where black men can be so successful in so many ways, based on merit alone. That's true, but I counter that none of that success prevents the same black man from being shot by a cop during a traffic stop.

I suspect many from the UK will argue against this line of thinking for at least two reasons: (1) American racism is far worse and (2) it's so hard to be a poor white man in the UK that it's not any better/worse for non-white males. To that I'll simply give two responses: (1) yes it's terrible here but don't be blind to your own national sins and (2) if you feel this way then you might need to find that 2nd black friend (if you even know any black males you'd call friend) so you can get some perspective on what it's like not being you.

Finally, a rhetorical question for you, especially if you are an English male: have you ever had a non-white boss? For far too many this answer is simply No.
Click to expand...

In answer to the question, No…..in fact the only non-white person I know runs the village shop……
 
SerenityNigh said:
Looking forward to what @Wizard has to say, but I'll give it a go. I want to start by clarifying that privilege applies broadly more than it applies individually, but there is always a specific element of individual privilege as well. The real distinction (or confusion) is between the individual and the broader class privilege and I'm not sure I will make that clear, so soz in advance.

I'll start on the individual level: Yank, male, white, mid-40s. On the world level my standard of living is exceptionally high. Easy access to clean water, basic utilities, education, and healthcare (although this is outrageously expensive now). Parent were both very poor by US standards but had most of the same access (privilege) and did well for themselves and their kids. My dad spent 40 years in an industry unrelated to his education because he "had a college degree." Now I'm in the same industry, largely because my father was in it. In fact, nearly every job I've had has come through a direct recommendation from someone who knew both me and the people hiring. I'd like to think I was qualified for at least most of these jobs, but the easy conclusion is that networks matter in life.

Neither me nor my father have ever been denied employment, access to basic utility/education/water, access to housing or financing, or similar gatekeeping due to the color of our skin. I'm not saying that anyone we've met, know, or worked with is specifically racist, but it's clear that the systems around us have been built in a way that allow easy/-ier access to white males than, for instance, black males. This is the sort of systemic bias/privilege that people are talking about. And that's the sort of privilege that allows some people a much easier path to success (whatever this means) than others.

I argue with a friend all of the time about this (which is weird because his wife is Latina and he can't see it): he says there's never been a time in America where black men can be so successful in so many ways, based on merit alone. That's true, but I counter that none of that success prevents the same black man from being shot by a cop during a traffic stop.

I suspect many from the UK will argue against this line of thinking for at least two reasons: (1) American racism is far worse and (2) it's so hard to be a poor white man in the UK that it's not any better/worse for non-white males. To that I'll simply give two responses: (1) yes it's terrible here but don't be blind to your own national sins and (2) if you feel this way then you might need to find that 2nd black friend (if you even know any black males you'd call friend) so you can get some perspective on what it's like not being you.

Finally, a rhetorical question for you, especially if you are an English male: have you ever had a non-white boss? For far too many this answer is simply No.
Click to expand...

TLDR; Charles Barkley has a story about when he asked his financial advisor to hire a black guy. I'll see if I can find it or paraphrase it, but it does a better job of illustrating how privilege is inherited. (Chuck gets along great with his advisor, Glenn Guthrie, and it's a good story).
 
SerenityNigh said:
Looking forward to what @Wizard has to say, but I'll give it a go. I want to start by clarifying that privilege applies broadly more than it applies individually, but there is always a specific element of individual privilege as well. The real distinction (or confusion) is between the individual and the broader class privilege and I'm not sure I will make that clear, so soz in advance.

I'll start on the individual level: Yank, male, white, mid-40s. On the world level my standard of living is exceptionally high. Easy access to clean water, basic utilities, education, and healthcare (although this is outrageously expensive now). Parent were both very poor by US standards but had most of the same access (privilege) and did well for themselves and their kids. My dad spent 40 years in an industry unrelated to his education because he "had a college degree." Now I'm in the same industry, largely because my father was in it. In fact, nearly every job I've had has come through a direct recommendation from someone who knew both me and the people hiring. I'd like to think I was qualified for at least most of these jobs, but the easy conclusion is that networks matter in life.

Neither me nor my father have ever been denied employment, access to basic utility/education/water, access to housing or financing, or similar gatekeeping due to the color of our skin. I'm not saying that anyone we've met, know, or worked with is specifically racist, but it's clear that the systems around us have been built in a way that allow easy/-ier access to white males than, for instance, black males. This is the sort of systemic bias/privilege that people are talking about. And that's the sort of privilege that allows some people a much easier path to success (whatever this means) than others.

I argue with a friend all of the time about this (which is weird because his wife is Latina and he can't see it): he says there's never been a time in America where black men can be so successful in so many ways, based on merit alone. That's true, but I counter that none of that success prevents the same black man from being shot by a cop during a traffic stop.

I suspect many from the UK will argue against this line of thinking for at least two reasons: (1) American racism is far worse and (2) it's so hard to be a poor white man in the UK that it's not any better/worse for non-white males. To that I'll simply give two responses: (1) yes it's terrible here but don't be blind to your own national sins and (2) if you feel this way then you might need to find that 2nd black friend (if you even know any black males you'd call friend) so you can get some perspective on what it's like not being you.

Finally, a rhetorical question for you, especially if you are an English male: have you ever had a non-white boss? For far too many this answer is simply No.
Click to expand...
Yes. 4. One was easily the best manager I've ever had. Inspirational woman all round.

God, I miss working for her actually.
 

SerenityNigh said:
Looking forward to what @Wizard has to say, but I'll give it a go. I want to start by clarifying that privilege applies broadly more than it applies individually, but there is always a specific element of individual privilege as well. The real distinction (or confusion) is between the individual and the broader class privilege and I'm not sure I will make that clear, so soz in advance.

I'll start on the individual level: Yank, male, white, mid-40s. On the world level my standard of living is exceptionally high. Easy access to clean water, basic utilities, education, and healthcare (although this is outrageously expensive now). Parent were both very poor by US standards but had most of the same access (privilege) and did well for themselves and their kids. My dad spent 40 years in an industry unrelated to his education because he "had a college degree." Now I'm in the same industry, largely because my father was in it. In fact, nearly every job I've had has come through a direct recommendation from someone who knew both me and the people hiring. I'd like to think I was qualified for at least most of these jobs, but the easy conclusion is that networks matter in life.

Neither me nor my father have ever been denied employment, access to basic utility/education/water, access to housing or financing, or similar gatekeeping due to the color of our skin. I'm not saying that anyone we've met, know, or worked with is specifically racist, but it's clear that the systems around us have been built in a way that allow easy/-ier access to white males than, for instance, black males. This is the sort of systemic bias/privilege that people are talking about. And that's the sort of privilege that allows some people a much easier path to success (whatever this means) than others.

I argue with a friend all of the time about this (which is weird because his wife is Latina and he can't see it): he says there's never been a time in America where black men can be so successful in so many ways, based on merit alone. That's true, but I counter that none of that success prevents the same black man from being shot by a cop during a traffic stop.

I suspect many from the UK will argue against this line of thinking for at least two reasons: (1) American racism is far worse and (2) it's so hard to be a poor white man in the UK that it's not any better/worse for non-white males. To that I'll simply give two responses: (1) yes it's terrible here but don't be blind to your own national sins and (2) if you feel this way then you might need to find that 2nd black friend (if you even know any black males you'd call friend) so you can get some perspective on what it's like not being you.

Finally, a rhetorical question for you, especially if you are an English male: have you ever had a non-white boss? For far too many this answer is simply No.
Click to expand...
I was going to reply when I got the chance but I think you’ve done a better job than I would have done. I realise that might sound like a cop out and sorry if it does but I don’t really have anything to add.

I think if you try and boil it down to its simplest terms (which is difficult and maybe stupid) you have to look at two people in identical situations with one difference. Their skin colour. In the vast majority of situations the white person will have more opportunities than the person of colour. This is not always due purely to actual racism (often it is) but as you mention the networks that have been built over many generations that open doors that are not available to others.

I can’t imagine ever walking into a shop and fearing being profiled by staff or worrying about having to deal with police. I know that from speaking to some of my black friends who have had very similar upbringings to me that it is something they think about for sure.

I think some people get defensive about the term in thinking that it implies that all white people have a privilege over all people of colour and that white people aren’t able to talk about their struggles. But that isn’t it. This is all my reading of the situation anyway and more than happy to debate it and be shown if I’m going wrong with my assessment.
 
Fantastic post by @SerenityNigh overall and I can safely say it's the same everywhere... in theory.

In Europe we have a separate problem by the by, which I've had the amazing pleasure to go through - names/origin. I can go into much bigger detail but my frustration was unimaginable when trying to find a job in the UK, and by "a job" I mean pretty much any job that's not at a construction site or a cleaner. I was doing engineering in uni and the amount of callbacks/rejection emails I had was staggering and pretty much close to 95%. The ones that did answer or call back in the end did so and basically laughed at my name and spoke to me like I'm actually unable to understand spoken language, as, to quote, "well you are from Bulgaria, what do you expect?" (by an HR from Tesco of all places) once and mispronouncing my first name about 5 times unapologetically before just going for Mr. 'Duality'.
SerenityNigh said:
Finally, a rhetorical question for you, especially if you are an English male: have you ever had a non-white boss? For far too many this answer is simply No.
Click to expand...
I have btw, interestingly enough, at Amazon in Dunfermline. He was a great guy who actually listened (well... for a line manager) to us and improved conditions and all. Top guy but got moved to upper management within like a week or two of me starting so the next after him was a fat bloke who told us to walk more/faster despite being unable to do so himself and kept defending shifts who weren't pulling in the numbers cuz he used to do those. Hilarious hire really.
 
DualityNSNO said:
Fantastic post by @SerenityNigh overall and I can safely say it's the same everywhere... in theory.

In Europe we have a separate problem by the by, which I've had the amazing pleasure to go through - names/origin. I can go into much bigger detail but my frustration was unimaginable when trying to find a job in the UK, and by "a job" I mean pretty much any job that's not at a construction site or a cleaner. I was doing engineering in uni and the amount of callbacks/rejection emails I had was staggering and pretty much close to 95%. The ones that did answer or call back in the end did so and basically laughed at my name and spoke to me like I'm actually unable to understand spoken language, as, to quote, "well you are from Bulgaria, what do you expect?" (by an HR from Tesco of all places) once and mispronouncing my first name about 5 times unapologetically before just going for Mr. 'Duality'.

I have btw, interestingly enough, at Amazon in Dunfermline. He was a great guy who actually listened (well... for a line manager) to us and improved conditions and all. Top guy but got moved to upper management within like a week or two of me starting so the next after him was a fat bloke who told us to walk more/faster despite being unable to do so himself and kept defending shifts who weren't pulling in the numbers cuz he used to do those. Hilarious hire really.
Click to expand...
Worked in a bar in the North East and would see a manager put all CVs with a foreign name in the shredder. Some (3rd eye) Brits like to claim that institutional racism does not exist in the U.K. when in actual fact it is very much alive and kicking.
 
JimmyJeffers said:
Worked in a bar in the North East and would see a manager put all CVs with a foreign name in the shredder. Some (3rd eye) Brits like to claim that institutional racism does not exist in the U.K. when in actual fact it is very much alive and kicking.
Click to expand...
It exists quite a lot, but it's (in 'my' case) okay because we're taking jobs and we're those pesky forens and white, how can there be racism against us???
 
DualityNSNO said:
Fantastic post by @SerenityNigh overall and I can safely say it's the same everywhere... in theory.

In Europe we have a separate problem by the by, which I've had the amazing pleasure to go through - names/origin. I can go into much bigger detail but my frustration was unimaginable when trying to find a job in the UK, and by "a job" I mean pretty much any job that's not at a construction site or a cleaner. I was doing engineering in uni and the amount of callbacks/rejection emails I had was staggering and pretty much close to 95%. The ones that did answer or call back in the end did so and basically laughed at my name and spoke to me like I'm actually unable to understand spoken language, as, to quote, "well you are from Bulgaria, what do you expect?" (by an HR from Tesco of all places) once and mispronouncing my first name about 5 times unapologetically before just going for Mr. 'Duality'.

I have btw, interestingly enough, at Amazon in Dunfermline. He was a great guy who actually listened (well... for a line manager) to us and improved conditions and all. Top guy but got moved to upper management within like a week or two of me starting so the next after him was a fat bloke who told us to walk more/faster despite being unable to do so himself and kept defending shifts who weren't pulling in the numbers cuz he used to do those. Hilarious hire really.
Click to expand...
You get this kind of thing in Germany too. I have some Romanian friends here that could tell similar stories. Not just finding jobs but places to live too
 

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