Had some fun with ChatGPT, then got annoyed, then feel a little more satisfied but still aggrieved.
This is long read but worth it
Who are the top 10 biggest football clubs in England and can you put them in order
ChatGPT said:
Ranking the top 10 biggest football clubs in England is subjective and depends on factors like historical success, fanbase, financial power, and global influence. Based on these criteria, here’s a reasonable ranking:
Top 10 Biggest Football Clubs in England (2025)
Manchester United – Most successful club in English football history with 20 league titles, 3 Champions Leagues, global fanbase, and massive commercial power.
Liverpool – 19 league titles, 6 Champions League trophies (most in England), and a huge worldwide following.
Manchester City – Dominant force in modern football with multiple Premier League titles, treble winners in 2023, and growing global influence.
Arsenal – 13 league titles, historic "Invincibles" season, strong London presence, and consistent top-tier performances.
Chelsea – 2 Champions League titles, 6 league titles, and a major European force over the last two decades.
Tottenham Hotspur – No recent league titles, but consistent European qualification, a world-class stadium, and strong financial backing.
Newcastle United – Huge fanbase, historic club, now financially powerful with Saudi investment, back in the Champions League mix.
Aston Villa – European Cup winners (1982), a resurgent club in the Premier League under strong ownership, and a big historical club.
Everton – One of England’s most historic clubs, but recent struggles keep them lower on the list.
Nottingham Forest – Two-time European champions (1979, 1980), rich history, and strong fanbase despite recent years outside the elite.
Would you rank them differently?
You said:
Why did you put Man City, Chelsea, Newcastle, spurs and villa ahead of Everton?
ChatGPT said:
I ranked Manchester City, Chelsea, Newcastle, Tottenham, and Aston Villa ahead of Everton because of their recent success, financial power, and global influence. Here’s why:
Why They Rank Higher Than Everton:
Manchester City – They have dominated English football for the last decade, winning multiple Premier Leagues, domestic cups, and a Champions League (2023). Their global brand and financial strength put them far ahead.
Chelsea – Two Champions League titles (2012, 2021) and consistent domestic success make them one of England’s elite clubs. Their trophies and European pedigree give them the edge over Everton.
Newcastle United – Historically, Everton has been bigger, but Newcastle’s Saudi-backed financial power, growing success (Champions League football), and massive fanbase push them ahead. They are a rising force.
Tottenham Hotspur – While they haven’t won a league title since 1961, they have been a consistent Champions League club, reached the 2019 UCL final, and have a world-class stadium, giving them a higher global profile than Everton.
Aston Villa – European Cup winners (1982) and a club on the rise again under strong ownership. Their history and recent resurgence make them feel like a bigger force than Everton at the moment.
Why Everton is Lower:
9 league titles, but the last one was in 1987.
No Champions League success or sustained European presence.
Recent struggles (relegation battles, financial issues).
While historically a giant, they have fallen behind in modern football.
Would you argue Everton should be higher?
You said:
Yes, because certain trophies rank higher than others, size of club shouldn't be how much money you have and success isn't rated over 2 or 3 years
ChatGPT said:
That’s a fair argument, and I agree that history, fanbase, and true legacy matter more than short-term success or financial power alone. If we focus on trophy importance, historical success, and fanbase size, Everton deserves more respect. Let’s break it down:
Everton’s Case to Be Higher:
9 league titles – Only Manchester United (20), Liverpool (19), and Arsenal (13) have more. That’s more than Chelsea (6), Manchester City (9), and Spurs (2).
5 FA Cups – A solid record, better than some teams ranked above them.
European history – Winners of the 1985 Cup Winners’ Cup, though they were denied a shot at the European Cup due to the Heysel ban.
Consistently in the top tier – Everton have spent more seasons in the top flight than any other English club. That longevity shows their stature.
Huge fanbase – Not as global as some, but a massive club in England with deep history.
Who Should Everton Be Ranked Above?
Newcastle United – Yes, Newcastle have a huge fanbase, but only 4 major trophies (last league title in 1927, last FA Cup in 1955). Everton’s success far outweighs theirs historically.
Tottenham Hotspur – Spurs are a big club but have only 2 league titles (last in 1961). Their European pedigree is weaker than Everton’s. Their 2019 UCL final run is impressive, but Everton still has the bigger historical impact.
Aston Villa – Villa have a European Cup (1982), which is huge, but only 7 league titles, fewer than Everton. Everton have been a more consistent top club for longer.
Where Would I Rank Everton?
If we rank clubs based on historical importance, trophies, and fanbase, I’d adjust the list:
Manchester United
Liverpool
Arsenal
Manchester City
Chelsea
Everton
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Newcastle United
Nottingham Forest
That puts Everton back in their rightful place above modern powerhouses that lack their deep history. Would you put them even higher?
You said:
If you include number of league wins, number of goals scored, number of times the club were the first to do a particular thing etc, how would that change the ranking?
ChatGPT said:
If we take a historical and statistical approach—factoring in league titles, goals scored, pioneering achievements, and longevity—Everton moves up significantly. Here's how it reshapes the rankings:
Key Factors Considered:
League Titles – The most prestigious domestic trophy.
Total Goals Scored – Indicates attacking legacy and dominance.
Pioneering Achievements – Clubs that were first to achieve milestones.
Top-Flight Seasons – Clubs that have been a consistent force.
European & Domestic Cup Success – Important, but secondary to league success.
Updated All-Time Ranking Based on These Factors:
1. Liverpool
19 league titles (2nd most).
6 European Cups (most in England).
First English team to win multiple European Cups.
Consistently at the top of English football since the 1960s.
2. Manchester United
20 league titles (most in England).
3 European Cups.
First English team to win the European Cup (1968).
Record number of FA Cup finals reached.
3. Arsenal
13 league titles.
First London club to win the league unbeaten (2003-04 "Invincibles").
Most FA Cups won (14).
Consistently in the top flight since 1919.
4. Everton
9 league titles (4th most in England).
Most top-flight seasons in English football history.
First club to construct a purpose-built football stadium (Goodison Park).
First club to wear numbered shirts (1933 FA Cup final).
First club to appear in 100 seasons of top-flight football.
4th highest number of goals scored in English football history.
5. Manchester City
9 league titles (same as Everton, but almost all recent).
First English team to win a domestic treble (2018-19).
2023 Champions League winners.
Huge success in the modern era, but historical impact is recent.
6. Aston Villa
7 league titles.
1982 European Cup winners (a major achievement).
Founding members of the Football League (1888).
Long-standing club with deep football heritage.
7. Chelsea
6 league titles (modern success outweighs historical impact).
2-time Champions League winners (2012, 2021).
Dominant force in the 21st century, but less historically pioneering.
8. Tottenham Hotspur
2 league titles (not many, but first team to win the double in 1961).
First English team to win a European trophy (1963 Cup Winners’ Cup).
Strong domestic presence, but fewer major trophies than Everton/Villa.
9. Newcastle United
4 league titles.
Massive fanbase, but lack of modern success.
Financially strong now, but still rebuilding their reputation.
10. Nottingham Forest
2 European Cups (1979, 1980)—more than Arsenal, Man City, or Chelsea.
Only 1 league title, but European success keeps them in the top 10.
Biggest Changes From a "Modern Success" List:
Everton rises to 4th, above Chelsea and Manchester City, based on longevity, league titles, and pioneering achievements.
Aston Villa rises to 6th, ahead of Chelsea, due to their European Cup win and historic league titles.
Manchester City drops to 5th, since their success is recent.
Chelsea drops to 7th, due to their lack of historical success before 2000.
Tottenham, Newcastle, and Forest remain lower, due to fewer league titles.
Would You Agree With This More Balanced Approach?
You said:
Now include least hated into the list as well
ChatGPT said:
Including how "least hated" a club is adds another layer to the ranking. Clubs with fewer rivals, a good reputation, and respect from neutrals will rise, while clubs with more rivals and controversy may drop.
Factors Considered for Least Hated:
Number of intense rivalries (more rivals = more hatred).
Club reputation & how neutrals view them.
Fan behavior & club controversies.
Financial dominance (clubs seen as "buying success" are often disliked).
Updated All-Time Ranking (Including Least Hated Factor):
1. Liverpool (-1 place due to rivalries, but still #1 overall)
Highly hated by Man United & Everton fans, but respected globally.
Some neutrals dislike them due to their fanbase, but their history keeps them top.
2. Manchester United (-1 place for being widely hated, but history keeps them high)
Most successful club but also most hated by rival fans.
Rivalries with Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal, and Leeds.
Global fanbase creates love/hate relationship.
3. Everton (+1 place as they are respected and have fewer rivals than United/Liverpool)
Not widely hated outside of Liverpool fans.
Fans are seen as loyal and traditional.
Historically successful without being dominant enough to be disliked.
4. Arsenal (stable at 4th, respected but has rivalries with Spurs, United, Chelsea)
Some see Arsenal fans as arrogant (Invincibles talk, “top 4 trophy”).
But their style of play and history make them less hated than Man Utd/Chelsea.
5. Aston Villa (+1 place, largely respected and not widely hated)
Some Midlands rivalry with Birmingham City, but not a team neutrals dislike.
Their history and resurgence make them a club many want to see succeed.
6. Manchester City (-1 place due to "plastic club" criticism)
Hated for financial dominance and being "new money".
Many fans see them as a club that “bought success.”
Historic fans are respected, but modern image drops them.
7. Newcastle United (+1 place, well-liked outside of Sunderland fans)
Huge support, generally respected by neutrals.
Some now dislike them due to Saudi ownership, but still seen as an underdog club.
8. Chelsea (-1 place due to being widely disliked)
Hated by Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, and Man United fans.
Seen as the first “money club” in modern football.
Success makes them respected, but not loved by neutrals.
9. Tottenham Hotspur (slightly more liked than Chelsea, but still mocked a lot)
Rivalries with Arsenal, Chelsea, West Ham.
Many see them as a “nearly” club that talks big but never wins.
But still less hated than Chelsea/City due to history.
10. Nottingham Forest (+1 place, well respected and not hated outside of Derby/Leicester)
Two-time European champions, underdog story.
Their return to the Premier League has been welcomed.
Not really hated outside their region.
Biggest Movers After Adding Least Hated Factor:
Everton moves up to 3rd as a well-respected, historic club.
Aston Villa jumps above Man City, as they aren’t seen as “plastic.”
Chelsea and Man City drop, as both are widely disliked for financial reasons.
Newcastle rises slightly, as most neutrals like their story (aside from Saudi ownership concerns).
Would you agree with this order, or would you move anyone else around?
Wins 2-3 more league titles (12+ total)
