2020/21 Carlo Ancelotti

[Jim Hopper]

No, you said our players can't play quickly. Well, why were they signed? Is that more poor recruitment?

Again though this is the point I’m making Ancellotti made 4 signings this summer. 3 midfielders. He’s had to use Sigurdsson and Gomes more so than any of his new signings, they have literally played more games than the other two. The same two players that slowed us down in the middle last season and prevented us from being able to get the ball further up the pitch quickly. The same two players that have played in every home game we have lost this season to sides who come here and have pressed us into submission and out fought us for every ball. That’s not a coincidence. You can have a formation, tactic, system in place as much as you want but if you’ve got players who aren’t up to much still getting in the team week after week against sides who are gonna take no crap and be the first to everything you’re always onto a loser.

Honestly had all our best players been available all season and we didn’t have to depend on crap like the previous season chumps we wouldn’t be here bemoaning getting outfought and outbattled by the likes of Newcastle and Fulham at home.

I know what I witnessed last season with the same group of players, I’m seeing the exact same with them this season when called upon, only this time even worse as we don’t have any right side at all when Coleman is out.

Things will/should change next season when more of the dross is out the door and we don’t have to depend on them.

Id put my house on that.

 

[PSB1]

Borrowed from @GrandOldTeam in his 'second balls' thread:

2017/18: 8th. 49 points. 26 points from 4th.
2018/19: 8th. 54 points. 17 points from 4th.
2019/20: 12th. 49 points. 17 points from 4th.

Now, let's look at 2020/21.

With 10 games remaining;

2020/21: 6th. 46 points. 5 points (+game in hand) from 4th.

Then, go and compare our win rate since Ancelotti took over vs the years before it,

 

[Saint Domingo]

100% - but nobody with sense is disagreeing.

However, doesn't mean we can't criticise when there's issues that have been present in a plethora of other performances through the season which are still showing no signs of being corrected.

It's the management's job to correct those. You can acknowledge that while also acknowledging we need better players, and not wanting Carlo out or any nonsense like that.

100%. I’m just not of the opinion that every one of these problems is down to Carlo. Ultimately he has to carry the can for them as a manager but take the Burnley game for example, until they scored we were in complete control, passing it round confidently, defensively secure, and we’d created a few openings. That is a perfect set up. That Davies then gives the ball away and we concede would not have been in the manager’s game plan, then a lot of players started to lose confidence and just passing balls backwards. I’m sure Carlo would like to pick different players but we don’t have them or they’re not fit.

There are a few things I will criticise him for. He’s played players who aren’t fully fit which i just think is a no no in the premier league. For some reason he doesn’t seem to value Walcott Kean or King as any type of attacking outlet which I think is a mistake. He doesn’t seem to want to give the likes of Onyango or Gordon game time when I think they’d probably offer more than Iwobi or Siggurdson.

So I think there’s room to say that his selection of his trusted core of players is open for scrutiny. Then there’s been the odd game I think he’s got it tactically wrong (Newcastle home and away, Fulham at home) but not many.

After this though it really does come down to the performance of players. Pickford dropping balls in his net, Holgate/Coleman having concentration lapses or struggling to play simple five yard passes. Gomes not tackling or over hitting simple passes. Davies dwelling on the ball too long and being weak in losing it. DCL missing simple chances, Richalrison consistently miscontrolling it. These are the mistakes that tilt games against us. I’m sure Carlo doesn’t ask his players to do any of these. He’s tried dropping most of them or rotating them but there’s quite simply no one else. The front two know they’re playing no matter how poor they’ve played, same with the midfielders as their competition has now gone due to injuries and lo and behold their performances have nosedived again.

Too much in my view is assigned to ‘mentality’. The players just need to ‘have a go’ then we’d
suddenly win games we’ve been second best in. I don’t think Carlo ever tells the players not to try and win. You can’t ‘have a go’ though against top quality opposition if 1-11 you have one of the slowest teams in the league. No matter how much the players might ‘want’ to, a better faster stronger set of opposition players also are wanting to ‘have a go’ and they have the tools to carry it out. It’s a lazy criticism that just annoys me, as though any football problem could be solved by the manager throwing on eye of the tiger in the changing room before the game and big Dunc screaming ‘get into them’ a bit harder. It’s nonsense. Pace power technique are the keys to winning and from that comes mentality. We don’t have nearly enough of any of those qualities.

 

[BlueToff]

Again though this is the point I’m making Ancellotti made 4 signings this summer. 3 midfielders. He’s had to use Sigurdsson and Gomes more so than any of his new signings, they have literally played more games than the other two. The same two players that slowed us down in the middle last season and prevented us from being able to get the ball further up the pitch quickly. The same two players that have played in every home game we have lost this season to sides who come here and have pressed us into submission and out fought us for every ball. That’s not a coincidence. You can have a formation, tactic, system in place as much as you want but if you’ve got players who aren’t up to much still getting in the team week after week against sides who are gonna take no crap and be the first to everything you’re always onto a loser.

Honestly had all our best players been available all season and we didn’t have to depend on crap like the previous season chumps we wouldn’t be here bemoaning getting outfought and outbattled by the likes of Newcastle and Fulham at home.

I know what I witnessed last season with the same group of players, I’m seeing the exact same with them this season when called upon, only this time even worse as we don’t have any right side at all when Coleman is out.

Things will/should change next season when more of the dross is out the door and we don’t have to depend on them.

Id put my house on that.

Sigurdsson slows us down when played deep. When played upfield, he doesn't. But, whose chosen to play him deep, whose chosen to play him and James or him and Gomes those times in that weird Xmas tree shape?

People make mistakes, it's fine to acknowledge that. I'm not asking for his head, I'm just asking us to start showing a bit more conviction to our play and while that means the players have to step up, we have to start - clearly - approaching these games with a better plan. If that has to mean sitting deep and playing how we play away then honestly so be it.

The bit in bold. We do not have an attacking system in place and that's the issue. We don't have a default. That's all I'm asking for - some semblance of creating more chances for our strikers. I'm not asking us to play like Brazil 1970, albeit it would be good if we could stop crap teams looking like they're Brazil when they play us.

Things will change, but to get better we need to finish higher, and to do that, we can't be throwing away points like we have done.

 

[BlueToff]

100%. I’m just not of the opinion that every one of these problems is down to Carlo. Ultimately he has to carry the can for them as a manager but take the Burnley game for example, until they scored we were in complete control, passing it round confidently, defensively secure, and we’d created a few openings. That is a perfect set up. That Davies then gives the ball away and we concede would not have been in the manager’s game plan, then a lot of players started to lose confidence and just passing balls backwards. I’m sure Carlo would like to pick different players but we don’t have them or they’re not fit.

There are a few things I will criticise him for. He’s played players who aren’t fully fit which i just think is a no no in the premier league. For some reason he doesn’t seem to value Walcott Kean or King as any type of attacking outlet which I think is a mistake. He doesn’t seem to want to give the likes of Onyango or Gordon game time when I think they’d probably offer more than Iwobi or Siggurdson.

So I think there’s room to say that his selection of his trusted core of players is open for scrutiny. Then there’s been the odd game I think he’s got it tactically wrong (Newcastle home and away, Fulham at home) but not many.

After this though it really does come down to the performance of players. Pickford dropping balls in his net, Holgate/Coleman having concentration lapses or struggling to play simple five yard passes. Gomes not tackling or over hitting simple passes. Davies dwelling on the ball too long and being weak in losing it. DCL missing simple chances, Richalrison consistently miscontrolling it. These are the mistakes that tilt games against us. I’m sure Carlo doesn’t ask his players to do any of these. He’s tried dropping most of them or rotating them but there’s quite simply no one else. The front two know they’re playing no matter how poor they’ve played, same with the midfielders as their competition has now gone due to injuries and lo and behold their performances have nosedived again.

Too much in my view is assigned to ‘mentality’. The players just need to ‘have a go’ then we’d
suddenly win games we’ve been second best in. I don’t think Carlo ever tells the players not to try and win. You can’t ‘have a go’ though against top quality opposition if 1-11 you have one of the slowest teams in the league. No matter how much the players might ‘want’ to, a better faster stronger set of opposition players also are wanting to ‘have a go’ and they have the tools to carry it out. It’s a lazy criticism that just annoys me, as though any football problem could be solved by the manager throwing on eye of the tiger in the changing room before the game and big Dunc screaming ‘get into them’ a bit harder. It’s nonsense. Pace power technique are the keys to winning and from that comes mentality. We don’t have nearly enough of any of those qualities.

Sorry to pick out a very small part of your post - which I'll read fully in a sec - but I really don't think anyone sensible is saying that.

I'd argue the majority of the problems, probably all of them, aren't 'down to Carlo'. Ultimately though, he does have to show he can go some way to fixing them. There's some he can't, and clearly we need to change that. But if one of those problems is being dominated by Fulham, Newcastle and Burnley at home, and not showing any signs that we know how to combat that, then that is actually an issue mate. And it does need working on.

 

[riddick]

Again though this is the point I’m making Ancellotti made 4 signings this summer. 3 midfielders. He’s had to use Sigurdsson and Gomes more so than any of his new signings, they have literally played more games than the other two. The same two players that slowed us down in the middle last season and prevented us from being able to get the ball further up the pitch quickly. The same two players that have played in every home game we have lost this season to sides who come here and have pressed us into submission and out fought us for every ball. That’s not a coincidence. You can have a formation, tactic, system in place as much as you want but if you’ve got players who aren’t up to much still getting in the team week after week against sides who are gonna take no crap and be the first to everything you’re always onto a loser.

Honestly had all our best players been available all season and we didn’t have to depend on crap like the previous season chumps we wouldn’t be here bemoaning getting outfought and outbattled by the likes of Newcastle and Fulham at home.

I know what I witnessed last season with the same group of players, I’m seeing the exact same with them this season when called upon, only this time even worse as we don’t have any right side at all when Coleman is out.

Things will/should change next season when more of the dross is out the door and we don’t have to depend on them.

Id put my house on that.

Who is this 3rd midfielder he bought? James? He's a forward, never a midfielder.

 

[Jim Hopper]

Who is this 3rd midfielder he bought? James? He's a forward, never a midfielder.

Depends how you view a forward. Forward for me is a DCL/Richarlison.

Hes played most games for us as a right midfielder. And played as a No.10 (Attacking Midfielder).

I don’t see how it has any relevance to the point though regardless of where he plays.

 

[Jim Hopper]

Sorry to pick out a very small part of your post - which I'll read fully in a sec - but I really don't think anyone sensible is saying that.

I'd argue the majority of the problems, probably all of them, aren't 'down to Carlo'. Ultimately though, he does have to show he can go some way to fixing them. There's some he can't, and clearly we need to change that. But if one of those problems is being dominated by Fulham, Newcastle and Burnley at home, and not showing any signs that we know how to combat that, then that is actually an issue mate. And it does need working on.

Or maybe the issue is the players he’s got available aren’t good enough to combat that? As proven earlier on in the season when everyone was available and we could put teams like West Brom & Brighton to to the sword by a comfortable score line?

I can’t accept that the manager isn’t trying to do anything to combat losing at home to these teams, I can t accept that he sends the players out there with little tactics or game plan to beat them. I just can’t. All I see in these games time and time again is the same old players being out fought and out battled by a team that knows we can’t handle the rough and tough with the players we have available.

 

[BlueToff]

Borrowed from @GrandOldTeam in his 'second balls' thread:

2017/18: 8th. 49 points. 26 points from 4th.
2018/19: 8th. 54 points. 17 points from 4th.
2019/20: 12th. 49 points. 17 points from 4th.

Now, let's look at 2020/21.

With 10 games remaining;

2020/21: 6th. 46 points. 5 points (+game in hand) from 4th.

Then, go and compare our win rate since Ancelotti took over vs the years before it,

Nobody is saying he's doing badly or that we're not doing well all things considered.

There's just frustration - and understandable frustration - that we really could/should have been better off.

We can't/won't win every game. We will make mistakes - so does Carlo. It's an acceptance that he has made them and not to just blame it all on the players, it's too much of an easy get-out. It's also not wrong to state we should take more than 4 points from 21 on offer v the seven teams we've faced in the league since the start of 2021.

 

[riddick]

Depends how you view a forward. Forward for me is a DCL/Richarlison.

Hes played most games for us as a right midfielder. And played as a No.10 (Attacking Midfielder).

I don’t see how it has any relevance to the point though regardless of where he plays.

Well simply because you stated he brought in 3 midfielders and we're still relying on Gomes and Sigurdsson when we really only brought in 2 and were always going to have to rely on those players from last year because you're never going to have a fully fit squad for the whole season. We REALLY needed to bring in at least one more. It was never "fixed", simply improved upon. I said this last summer, if we only get in Doucoure and Allan there we'd have to rely on players way too often in the season who comprised of the worst midfield in the Premier League and probably a bunch of Championship teams. Lo and behold, Gomes and Sigurdsson have started more than Allan. Great.

 

[BlueToff]

Or maybe the issue is the players he’s got available aren’t good enough to combat that? As proven earlier on in the season when everyone was available and we could put teams like West Brom & Brighton to to the sword by a comfortable score line?

I can’t accept that the manager isn’t trying to do anything to combat losing at home to these teams, I can t accept that he sends the players out there with little tactics or game plan to beat them. I just can’t. All I see in these games time and time again is the same old players being out fought and out battled by a team that knows we can’t handle the rough and tough with the players we have available.

The players we have should have enough to beat at least one of Fulham, Newcastle and Burnley. James was fit for two of those matches, too.

We can stomach one or two and say yes, the players aren't good enough. But when it becomes a trend - and it is a trend at 4 out of 21 points, not having scored a 2nd half goal in 11 home games, not having more shots than the other team even once over our last 18 matches - then you have to look at why that's happening.

We need structure in place or these things will keep happening and our chances of getting the quality we need to improve the squad will get less and less.

 

[alphabet]

Thought we played a decent game. We've had a ton of chances for that game to go our way after 2-0, but Dom's touch went AWOL on Saturday. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. Team needs more players, for the first squad and rotation alike.

 

[Lanolin]

Sorry to pick out a very small part of your post - which I'll read fully in a sec - but I really don't think anyone sensible is saying that.

I'd argue the majority of the problems, probably all of them, aren't 'down to Carlo'. Ultimately though, he does have to show he can go some way to fixing them. There's some he can't, and clearly we need to change that. But if one of those problems is being dominated by Fulham, Newcastle and Burnley at home, and not showing any signs that we know how to combat that, then that is actually an issue mate. And it does need working on.

Yeah that's it for me. I think a lot of people are either missing the point of much of the criticism/annoyance or wilfully misunderstanding what's being said. I don't believe we have a squad that should be in the top 4 and swatting aside the Burnleys and Newcastles with ease. I also don't think we have a squad that shouldn't be able to find any way to dictate a game against those sides either though, and consistently find ourselves being second best to them. And while injuries and squad depth can be used as a defence for some games, it's worth pointing out that in the bad run we had earlier in the season, when many of the same issues were present, we did have Allan and Doucoure playing, so this idea that the midfield set up is fine with those 2 in it isn't really backed up by evidence. I think some people are quick to remember half an hour against Leicester when Allan and Doucoure were superb, but quick to forget us being completely overrun by Leeds, Southampton etc with them in there. It's disappointing that we don't seem to have found a way to control the middle of the pitch, even against very poor sides.

 

[BlueToff]

Yeah that's it for me. I think a lot of people are either missing the point of much of the criticism/annoyance or wilfully misunderstanding what's being said. I don't believe we have a squad that should be in the top 4 and swatting aside the Burnleys and Newcastles with ease. I also don't think we have a squad that shouldn't be able to find any way to dictate a game against those sides either though. And while injuries and squad depth can be used as a defence for some games, it's worth pointing out that in the bad run we had earlier in the season, when many of the same issues were present, we did have Allan and Doucoure playing, so this idea that the midfield set up is fine with those 2 in it isn't really backed up by evidence. I think some people are quick to remember half an hour against Leicester when Allan and Doucoure were superb, but quick to forget us being completely overrun by Leeds, Southampton etc with them in there. It's disappointing that we don't seem to have found a way to control the middle of the pitch, even against very poor sides.

Yep, it is.

And then what makes it worse for me is that instead of just going 'right, let's play to our strengths' (like we've done in away games, by and large), we've tried to keep at it and just looked completely crap against these types of teams.

Look where our goal v S'ton came from - one long ball from Pickford, DCL winning the flick, Sigurdsson playing a quick pass.

If we need to go direct, go direct, because we're better at it. And then push up 5 yards that way. Get the ball up top and that's when you push.

We can blame players all we want but we don't press, we don't play to our strengths enough. Of course the players have to make the decision on the pitch, but what's actually been worked on in training because I genuinely don't see a sign of any attacking structure.

 

[Jim Hopper]

The players we have should have enough to beat at least one of Fulham, Newcastle and Burnley. James was fit for two of those matches, too.

We can stomach one or two and say yes, the players aren't good enough. But when it becomes a trend - and it is a trend at 4 out of 21 points, not having scored a 2nd half goal in 11 home games, not having more shots than the other team even once over our last 18 matches - then you have to look at why that's happening.

We need structure in place or these things will keep happening and our chances of getting the quality we need to improve the squad will get less and less.

Well it depends on your options. Coming up against a team that will be mostly solid, keep their shape, press us for 90 minutes and completely outbattle and nullify us which is what all of them teams above came here and did, when your options in the middle of the park are between Gomes or Sigurdsson for all of them games and your only player capable of creating anything is James Rodriguez who’s been completely marked out and kicked out of the game how else do you approach the games?