Conspiracy theories

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

'Scientific uncertainty' would err on the side of caution and not roll out an untested (long-term) new-tech Vaccine on the whole world, to combat a disease which - statistically - appears to be as dangerous for healthy 12-50 year olds as other viruses already out there.


This, pre-2020, would be regarded as a totally common-sense approach.


Moreover, i'm interested in your position: what are your views on folk not getting the Covid-vaccine in 2022 (and beyond) and should there be rules or laws to sanction them? Are you planning to partake in further shots and what is your reasoning?

My personal opinion?

Had a few friends / family members / colleagues either die or suffer serious long term consequences, pre-vaccine roll out. Within the age/health bracket you cite. So for those reasons I personally will get the jab. I'd advocate others getting it too.

However, it is individual choice.

On the original point, you are clearly trying to cause controversy.

 

[dholliday]

My personal opinion?

Had a few friends / family members / colleagues either die or suffer serious long term consequences, pre-vaccine roll out. Within the age/health bracket you cite. So for those reasons I personally will get the jab. I'd advocate others getting it too.

However, it is individual choice.

I'm sorry to hear that about folk in your circle, i fully appreciate your position. Maybe - like with many complex ideas - a totally objective view of something is impossible. Our experiences shape our world.

Also maybe: 2022 is a different picture than 2020, requiring different ideas.


Glad to hear that despite your tragic experiences you advocate personal choice!

 

[Amw79]

When there's literally millions of self-reported claims of dodgy side-effects, yet only a handful get officially verified due to a convoluted uninviting bureaucratic process, then the vast majority of those claims will remain 'unsubstantiated'.

Textbook whitewashing tactic.

I thoroughly explained this process a number of times now, and you’re just dismissing it as whitewashing.

As to believing that the nearby location of the Coronavirus Lab was just an incredible coincidence...well...

I’ve already said I’m open to scientific evidence that shows a lab leak.

You just repeating ‘But it’s close, seems a bit suss’, isn’t scientific.

As to your claim that i'm "misusing data", i note with interest you haven't tackled this one yet:

You’ve made several obvious mistakes, misuses, omissions and misunderstandings in todays set of posts relating to death rates, I’m not going back and forth with you on it, as you’ll eventually dismiss them as whitewashing, coincidence, convenience or some other hand waving.

 

[trueblue84]

We shall see how that develops.


I meant "the one" that then gets side-lined. In EU it was made unavailable, effectively banned. The media weren't shy about reporting AZ-issues.

Did EU having a secretive contract with Pfizer have more to do with that than AZ being a more dangerous vaccine? More here, and here.

Is AZ a more dangerous & risky vaccine than Biontech/Moderna? Is it more or less effective?




So just a coincidence that the Lab studying coronaviruses was just a stone's throw away then?

Jon Stewart had a think about that:

John Stewart is a comedian. He is making jokes around a belief that is based on nothing more than a lab is in a city. The lab is called the Wuhan institute for virology, not the Wuhan novel respiratory coronavirus lab. There are labs like these all over the world that look into this stuff. Liverpool has one of the leading schools for tropical disease.

I'm not saying it definitely didn't originate from there, but I trust the opinions of the scientists who have looked into it.

Do you think all scientists around the world are in on a conspiracy? If so, first of all, why?

second, at what level does the conspiracy start? I.e. are uni students who are studying medicine or virology in on it?

 

[dholliday]

I thoroughly explained this process a number of times now, and you’re just dismissing it as whitewashing.

And i've said numerous times this process is convoluted enough that the vast majority don't get to begin it nevermind see it through.

So what happens then to all those 'unverified' claims? They remain unsubstantiated.

Useful, for some. Not helpful to most.

I’ve already said I’m open to scientific evidence that shows a lab leak.

You just repeating ‘But it’s close, seems a bit suss’, isn’t scientific.

It's an incredible coincidence...more than a bit suss.

Are you aware of Rand Paul's claims of Fauci's NIH financing gain-of-function research in that lab?


There was a bunch of partisan-media 'fact-check' responses from 2021, but this story is still developing. The study you linked earlier is far from definitive.

You’ve made several obvious mistakes

Quote a mistake then.

What have i written is an actual factual mistake?

misuses, omissions and misunderstandings in todays set of posts relating to death rates

in your opinion. But the facts are right there: well over 90% of Covid-deaths are vaccinated. 85% of them boosted.

This makes less than 10% of Covid-deaths unvaccinated.

This should be BIG NEWS, and wouldn't be believed as possible a few months ago.


Those are the undeniable facts.

What do they mean, in your view?


What are your views on folk not getting the Covid-vaccine in 2022 (and beyond) and should there be rules or laws to sanction them? Are you planning to partake in further shots and what is your reasoning?

 

[dholliday]

John Stewart is a comedian. He is making jokes around a belief that is based on nothing more than a lab is in a city. The lab is called the Wuhan institute for virology, not the Wuhan novel respiratory coronavirus lab. There are labs like these all over the world that look into this stuff. Liverpool has one of the leading schools for tropical disease.

I'm not saying it definitely didn't originate from there, but I trust the opinions of the scientists who have looked into it.

Do you think all scientists around the world are in on a conspiracy? If so, first of all, why?

second, at what level does the conspiracy start? I.e. are uni students who are studying medicine or virology in on it?

Good post.

Are you aware of Rand Paul's claims of Fauci's NIH financing gain-of-function research in that lab?

 

[Amw79]

This should be BIG NEWS, and wouldn't be believed as possible a few months ago.

My only comment is it’s not big news. It was already known months ago. It was predicted when the vaccines first rolled out.

Your use of data is abysmal.

 

[trueblue84]

Good post.

Are you aware of Rand Paul's claims of Fauci's NIH financing gain-of-function research in that lab?

A claim that fauci called an “egregious misrepresentation”.

We may never know the origin of the virus. Not least because China have not exactly been forthcoming in helping investigators. However, the evidence from scientists (from all sides of the political divide and with no real skin in the game) is that it was likely of natural origin. I struggle to see what benefit any side would have in manufacturing and releasing a virus as everyone loses. Hence why all sides went into mass panic and took it seriously.

At best, if you still believe it did originate in a lab (as in they were studying various strains, not creating viruses), you would have to concede it was most likepy leaked by mistake and was not some secretive plot by a nefarious government.

 

[dholliday]

My only comment is it’s not big news. It was already known months ago. It was predicted when the vaccines first rolled out.

lol no, it was predicted that the vaccines would be effective. It was predicted - by the likes of Fauci, Biden and CDC - that the vaccinated wouldn't even get Covid if vaccinated. Shall I link you these? You must be aware of them.

It was never predicted that there'd come a time when over 90% of Covid-deaths would be already-vaccinated.

Link me this prediction. I bet you'll only find such a thing from sceptics (who have been proven right).

Your use of data is abysmal.

You're moving the goalposts. There's no shame in admitting it's maybe your use of data which is lacking.


Link me your claim that it was predicted when the vaccines rolled-out that eventually the vast majority of Covid-deaths would be...the vaccinated.
I'd love to see it. You might just change my mind.

If you can't find such a claim, it's because - logically - had we attempted to sell the idea of getting vaccinated with such a prediction, then nobody would've taken it.


While you're at it: what are your views on folk not getting the Covid-vaccine in 2022 (and beyond) and should there be rules or laws to sanction them?

 

[Amw79]

lol no, it was predicted that the vaccines would be effective. It was predicted - by the likes of Fauci, Biden and CDC - that the vaccinated wouldn't even get Covid if vaccinated. Shall I link you these? You must be aware of them.

It was never predicted that there'd come a time when over 90% of Covid-deaths would be already-vaccinated.

Link me this prediction. I bet you'll only find such a thing from sceptics (who have been proven right).



You're moving the goalposts. There's no shame in admitting it's maybe your use of data which is lacking.


Link me your claim that it was predicted when the vaccines rolled-out that eventually the vast majority of Covid-deaths would be...the vaccinated.
I'd love to see it. You might just change my mind.

If you can't find such a claim, it's because - logically - had we attempted to sell the idea of getting vaccinated with such a prediction, then nobody would've taken it.

I’m not explaining data usage to you anymore, it’s like banging my head against a wall.

While you're at it: what are your views on folk not getting the Covid-vaccine in 2022 (and beyond) and should there be rules or laws to sanction them?

I think Covid is now endemic, much milder than the wild strain, Alpha and delta variants, so people should go about their business. People who would have got a flu jab should consider getting a Covid jab.

 

[dholliday]

A claim that fauci called an “egregious misrepresentation”.

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he lol

I struggle to see what benefit any side would have in manufacturing and releasing a virus as everyone loses.

Not necessarily that the leak was intentional, but that it was accidental.

Hence why all sides went into mass panic and took it seriously.

Not all. Many African nations have been quite blasé about it, and some Eastern Europeans too. They don't appear to have worse death-rates than panicked nations.

At best, if you still believe it did originate in a lab (as in they were studying various strains, not creating viruses), you would have to concede it was most likepy leaked by mistake and was not some secretive plot by a nefarious government.

Ah yes, i already agreed with this above.


The conspiracies i believe are quite basic, not fantastic at all:


1) was lab-leaked accidentally.
2) vaccines are mass-pushed for maximum profit.
3) governments & media play ball as they are largely bought-out, are addicted to fear, and enjoy the control/influence they have over folk a bit too much.


So no lizards, 5G-microchips or whatever else nutty stuff is out there.



I haven't asked you yet: what are your views on folk not getting the Covid-vaccine in 2022 (and beyond) and should there be rules or laws to sanction them?

 

[dholliday]

I think Covid is now endemic, much milder than the wild strain, Alpha and delta variants, so people should go about their business. People who would have got a flu jab should consider getting a Covid jab.

This we can agree on

 

[DuuuncanHadaPigeon]

And i've said numerous times this process is convoluted enough that the vast majority don't get to begin it nevermind see it through.

So what happens then to all those 'unverified' claims? They remain unsubstantiated.

Useful, for some. Not helpful to most.




It's an incredible coincidence...more than a bit suss.

Are you aware of Rand Paul's claims of Fauci's NIH financing gain-of-function research in that lab?


There was a bunch of partisan-media 'fact-check' responses from 2021, but this story is still developing. The study you linked earlier is far from definitive.



Quote a mistake then.

What have i written is an actual factual mistake?


in your opinion. But the facts are right there: well over 90% of Covid-deaths are vaccinated. 85% of them boosted.

This makes less than 10% of Covid-deaths unvaccinated.

This should be BIG NEWS, and wouldn't be believed as possible a few months ago.


Those are the undeniable facts.

What do they mean, in your view?


What are your views on folk not getting the Covid-vaccine in 2022 (and beyond) and should there be rules or laws to sanction them? Are you planning to partake in further shots and what is your reasoning?

There are much more people vaccinated than unvaccinated so you would expect more deaths in the vaccinated group, in absolute terms.

If you want to make your point more effective, the data needs to be expressed as deaths per 100,000 or something to that effect

It is better to compare deaths per 100,000 between vaccinated and un vaccinated

If the rate of deaths in the vaccinated group is higher then you have a point.

 

[trueblue84]

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he lol



Not necessarily that the leak was intentional, but that it was accidental.


Not all. Many African nations have been quite blasé about it, and some Eastern Europeans too. They don't appear to have worse death-rates than panicked nations.


Ah yes, i already agreed with this above.


The conspiracies i believe are quite basic, not fantastic at all:


1) was lab-leaked accidentally.
2) vaccines are mass-pushed for maximum profit.
3) governments & media play ball as they are largely bought-out, are addicted to fear, and enjoy the control/influence they have over folk a bit too much.


So no lizards, 5G-microchips or whatever else nutty stuff is out there.



I haven't asked you yet: what are your views on folk not getting the Covid-vaccine in 2022 (and beyond) and should there be rules or laws to sanction them?

There should definitely be no laws against those who don't get the vaccine. I don't think there's ever been a law requiring people to get vaccinated against anything in history, but I also don't think there's been proposals to criminalise those who don't get the covid jab. I don't believe people's freedoms have been eroded in any way as a result of COVID. Most countries now allow travel as long as you give a negative test. That's not an unreasonable ask.

People who aren't vaccinated tend to refuse it based on what I'd deem "crazy grounds". I find that sad that they are sucked into such views and think the scientific community has a duty to do all it can to try to convince them/fight against misinformation, even if there is little hope of changing their mind.

I believe misinformation to be the biggest threat to humanity for the foreseeable future.

 

[dholliday]

There are much more people vaccinated than unvaccinated so you would expect more deaths in the vaccinated group, in absolute terms.

If you want to make your point more effective, the data needs to be expressed as deaths per 100,000 or something to that effect

It is better to compare deaths per 100,000 between vaccinated and un vaccinated

If the rate of deaths in the vaccinated group is higher then you have a point.

82 unvaccinated deaths, out.of estimated 3-million unvaxxed adults:

1155 boostered deaths, out of estimated 40m boostered individuals.

You can already see the problem...