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David Moyes - Taking a knife to a gunfight at West Ham, Part 2

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EFC78 said:
The club and playing squads throughout the 1990s made Everton look small time and small minded (obviously excluding the Cup win, but no point in deluding ourselves that we were a great side back then). Final day survivals and finishing around 15th year upon year weakened the perception of the club far more than Moyes ever did.
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weakened it far more is quite subjective there, but I don’t it’s outrageous to claim he at least prolonged that perception and it suited him to do so even if it’s a stretch to say he was the main cause (the Walter smith comment is too much for me also)

it’s an opinion I held long before I was on any forums discussing these things, and I wasn’t surprised seeing it repeated on here since I joined 10yrs ago. I stopped listening to and reading his after match comments after a few years as he was constantly making excuses and talking the club down IMO

I think his behavior around the attempted signing of Baines when he left, and the comment about knowing how we work just reinforced this for me. The horrific record in big games and how he would set us up was a fair indicator also that he saw us as a “small” club right up until he left
 
EFC78 said:
Fair point but we had a poor owner financially in Kenwright throughout Moyes' time and yet he got us 4th, 5th 2-3 times, 6th about 3 times.

I'll have a look but I'm sure before Moshiri came in we had the 18th richest owner in the league. Maybe he was like 15th during the Moyes era but Moyes still did extremely well given our financial constraints.
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Moyes could spot a player for sure, and get the best from his teams. But towards the end his lack of positivity went against him, but it was the way he moved to Utd that did it for me. Credit where credit is due, he’s doing a good job at WHU, but great players would have no interest in playing for him.....
 
Walter Smith was a joke, he was depressingly negative, and after Kendall Pt. III, years of neglect were curbed by Moyes, and give him full credit, he steered us clear of relegation, and set the foundations for us being a secure Premier League side even as of now.

He gave us Europe, and some great memories, and I'll be grateful for those too.

But there were equally as many depressing times, as positives, like losing 4-0 to Bolton and Villa two games on the trot etc, I get it, he didn't have a winning mentality, which significantly impacted him.
He was over cautious, which was frustrating, as he managed to assemble the best team i've seen in our lifetime. Some of that caution just killed us, the Fiorentina 1st Leg, was a disgrace and we should have progressed, but we stuttered. Liverpool at Wembley, tried bringing on Tony Hibbert on 89 minutes, with the game going into Extra time.

It's clear that the mentality to succeed wasn't there.

But the thing which got me, when he was under the telescope for the United job, he finally started a season quickly, and then when he signed the contract, he ran it down, and didn't even get us a penny of compensation (at a time we really needed it), and made a right fool of us.

The fellaini and Baines unsettling was also a disgrace, actively giving his word to Kenwright that he wouldn't tap up out players, and did just that.

But am i a fan of Moyes? Nope, don't like the fella. Do i respect what he did here? Yes. Did he stay too long? I say yes, 100%, and should have went after that Wembley semi loss.
 
maccavennie said:
What you on about? The 6 league titles, 4 fa cups, 3 CL, 2 league cups and 5 charity shields under Walter Smith, Mike Walker and Royle ( though obviously Royle only won us the FA Cup) were some of the beat days of my life.

The football we played was superb. I can see it now "Mitch Ward wirh a lovely infield pass to Hutchinson, Hutchinson sprays it wide to Oster, Oster looks up to see who is showing for it and its that talisman Stephen Hughes who backheels it Danny Willianson. Williamson with an eye of a needle through ball to John Spencer who rounds the keeper and squares it to Barlow......unfortunately Barlow git a little over excited again and strayed 4 yards offside"
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Stuart "Jigsaw" Barlow

How did he miss so many chances?


barneygumble said:
Walter Smith was a joke, he was depressingly negative, and after Kendall Pt. III, years of neglect were curbed by Moyes, and give him full credit, he steered us clear of relegation, and set the foundations for us being a secure Premier League side even as of now.

He gave us Europe, and some great memories, and I'll be grateful for those too.

But there were equally as many depressing times, as positives, like losing 4-0 to Bolton and Villa two games on the trot etc, I get it, he didn't have a winning mentality, which significantly impacted him.
He was over cautious, which was frustrating, as he managed to assemble the best team i've seen in our lifetime. Some of that caution just killed us, the Fiorentina 1st Leg, was a disgrace and we should have progressed, but we stuttered. Liverpool at Wembley, tried bringing on Tony Hibbert on 89 minutes, with the game going into Extra time.

It's clear that the mentality to succeed wasn't there.

But the thing which got me, when he was under the telescope for the United job, he finally started a season quickly, and then when he signed the contract, he ran it down, and didn't even get us a penny of compensation (at a time we really needed it), and made a right fool of us.

The fellaini and Baines unsettling was also a disgrace, actively giving his word to Kenwright that he wouldn't tap up out players, and did just that.

But am i a fan of Moyes? Nope, don't like the fella. Do i respect what he did here? Yes. Did he stay too long? I say yes, 100%, and should have went after that Wembley semi loss.
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Didnt read all but just on Smith...

...you realise he spent money 1st season and then had to sell the players as Johnson wanted the money back?

Then Johnson sold players behind his back like Ferguson...

Also Johnson would disappear at times when Smith wanted to do deals.

Think he gets a pass for the negative football with what he had to work with.
 

Zatara said:
Stuart "Jigsaw" Barlow

How did he miss so many chances?





Didnt read all but just on Smith...

...you realise he spent money 1st season and then had to sell the players as Johnson wanted the money back?

Then Johnson sold players behind his back like Ferguson...

Also Johnson would disappear at times when Smith wanted to do deals.

Think he gets a pass for the negative football with what he had to work with.
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Oh, it was more a, Moyes was a breath of fresh air.

I know Smith was a decent manager, he got some good results for us, when things went well. Doesnt mean, on the whole, the Smith regime wasn’t depressing whether that’s his fault or not.

Moyes came in and was a breath of fresh air. But overstayed his welcome entirely.

Got some cracking memories under Smith, 4-0 away at West Ham, 6-0 Boro etc. I still maintain to this day, that his scouting was just incredible.
 
barneygumble said:
As the poster below mentioned.

He basically turned the ethos of this club on its head, almost made it feel like it was a privilege to be in the top flight let alone pushing for Europe.

The "knives to a gunfight,", "Lucky to get out there alive", summed him up, When the big occasion came, Davey got going. It set in with the fans too, fans think we're "little old everton".

Ancelotti bringing "knives to a gunfight", i assume include Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and United too? Which we've taken 10 points from this season. Ancelotti did in 1 year, what Moyes failed to in 11... Win at the bigger sides.

MOyes, gets credit in some areas, but if you're openly admitting small minded philosophies, over the years your players will only ever see that. Terrified of Anfield cause your manager is, is probably why it took us 20 years to win there.
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I take it what you say,but I imagine the team talks would have been fairly similar. Keep it tight see what we can get,then see out the game. The players are the difference.
 
EFC78 said:
There is a bizarre reframing of history regarding the pre Moyes 1990s era among a section of our fanbase.

I don't understand it.
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Can be boiled down to some fans got bored of Moyes hitting the glass ceiling on a shoe string budget so hated him for it and now will dress up anything that came before or after it as brilliant even though almost every single point of evidence you can find says otherwise.

They held a view that it was Moyes and not poor players holding us back. It’s still the same problem now, if only Carlo told them to get forward a bit more then some of our players wouldn’t be so poor. Well we had all of those nice positive words under Martinez and Silva and they almost saw us relegated because ultimately words mean nothing if you don’t have the quality to back it up.

When we have a squad like Chelsea City United Liverpool Arsenal Spurs or Leicester then I’ll join in the criticism of pragmatic managers keeping the handbrake on. When they’re managing squads that are far inferior though but have them performing ahead of some of these teams then I’m really not into piling on the manager for that.
 

Daveysgingerlovechild said:
Astonishing how Moyes having a decent season at another Prem club has resurrected all the old debates.

Heaven forbid he wins something. Like it or not he was a very important figure in this club's history. Otherwise we wouldn't talk about him so much.
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I’m absolutely convinced we’d be a lower league team or liquidated if it wasn’t for Moyes. We’d been circling the drain for a few seasons before he came in and seeing as every other team outside the top 6 had been relegated in the prem at some point I’m fairly certain we would have gone down had we carried on. Considering we were mortgaged to the hilt at the time that could well have been the end of the club. No Moshiri, no stadium on the docks, no Ancelotti, no James Rodriguez. The club was such a basket case as well I’m not convinced we could have even ever got back to the prem had we financially survived. When you consider we’ve been flirting with the lower end of the table in 4 of the 7 seasons between Moyes going and Ancelotti arriving during a period when we had a lot of cash and Lukaku it’s not a reach to think we would have gone down at some point in a period of Kenwright selling our best players every window if it hadn’t have been for Moyes.

Not only did he stave off that nightmare scenario. He actually took us into European qualification multiple times and remains along with Leicester, Newcastle and Leeds the only non top 6 club to break the top 4 in prem history since 2000. He pretty much kept us financially afloat as well taking undervalued players and then selling them at huge profits. He even left Stones ffs, 47 mill of profit with the last roll of his dice at the club.

His thanks for all of this? Loads moaning at him for trying to buy a couple of players off us when he went to United and pretending he wasn’t very good for us ever since. I don’t think we’d even have a club if it wasn’t for Moyes. The best premier league manager in our history to this point no doubt in my mind. Hopefully Carlo can take that title off him.
 

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