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David Moyes - Taking a knife to a gunfight at West Ham, Part 2

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DualityNSNO said:
The "he inherited this and that" is largely irrelevant - we're not talking about the season he came in, we're talking 10+ years later. Entirely his own team, with his own mindset.

There's many ways for a team to setup and win games against better sides - oddly enough Moyes himself was very good against City in the league. But not in any kind of relevant or cup game though, that's too dangerous.
Plan A was the way we played most often - down the left. If that doesn't work - Fellaini/big lad/Cahill or all 3 options in the box and pump it in.
Plan B - park the bus, clench the anus, hold on for dear life. Works sometimes. Oh also take a forward off for a defender.

2009 our plan was to defend for 90 minutes and offer absolutely nothing going forward - proper "park the bus there's 5 min left to go" game, despite the fact it was with an entire game to go as we scored the fastest goal ever at that point. Had nothing to do with money or who it was - if it was a League 2 team we'd still play that way, that was the only way to play in those situations. We've sat back and defended and it's cost us in cups to the point it was the "regular loss in the league/FA cup against a L1/Championship team" year by year.

Some examples though - 2018 Eintracht, having ridiculously inferior players to Bayern, played well, played on the counter, created chances, won the cup.
Leicester for the FA Cup vs Chelsea last year - shithoused a 1:0 thanks to a worldie, but didn't roll over.
Palace gave United a game in 2016 taking it to extra time, didn't roll over.
We just seemingly never could. Almost as if the way we set up was not "to try and win", but rather "not to lose". Had we beat Wigan and somehow miraculously defeated the giants of checks notes... Millwall... in the semi - we'd be absolutely battered by City anyway, by that logic, so why even try, right?

Also the 3 goals in a few minutes has happened so many times since that I don't believe you, but I also want to erase those moments, sadly lol

If you can't understand that there are ways to win against bigger teams - might as well just roll over to the "top 4" and let them have the master mega awesome super league or whatever the hell.
I just wanted to see us try in these competitions, maybe reach a final. Arsed what cup it is. Maybe it's me being salty the most "success" I've seen for us is essentially that same 2009 final which we had no bottle to try in and the Everton Cup or whatever for playing against Everton ffs.

Leicester won a title based on playing smart, not pretty, and by adopting an underdog kind of mentality against everyone. We can't over the span of 1 or 2 games though, as other teams have better players. Martinez was a beast in those - remember how we absolutely crapped on Wolfsburg? Remember how we finished 11th and we were on an obvious spiral, yet Wolfsburg were quite dominant and finished 2nd in the BuLi that same year and won the cup? KDB played in that game, Perisic, Bas Dost - yet, we dismantled them at ease.
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Firstly, the way you've been going on, I had assumed you must have grown up in the 60's, and seen the success of that era as well as the 80's glory years lol . I like you wasn't around for that period, with my earliest memories being the 1995 season, so I remember watching the Rideout winner in the Cup Final. Other than that one moment of success, my expectations of our club are affected by my upbringing and going through the worry of relegation and seeing us as a bottom half non-entity of a team before Moyes came in, who then turned us in to a European qualifying side on numerous occasions and made us somewhat relevant again. Since then, the club has largely been a car crash and we are now back to the state we were in in the early 00's before Moyes came in.
 
@DualityNSNO it's not letting me post my full reply in one post so continuing it here...

For all the Moyes bashing you're doing i'd like to point out some of his "achievements" whilst with us and highlight how many managers since Howard Kendall in the 1980's have matched him. In that period we have had 13 full time managers (not including Moyes).

A top 4 finish - looks like Colin Harvey did it in 1988 after inheriting our title winning side of 1987.

An FA Cup Final appearance - Colin Harvey in 1989 (again, only 2 years after we won the league) and Joe Royle in 1995 - who bettered Moyes by winning it

A 3-0 derby win - No manager has done that. In fact, you'd have to go back to 1964 for a derby win by more than 3 goals, so Moyes is the only Everton manager in 58 years who has managed such an emphatic derby win (margin of 3+ goals).

A top 5 finish - Already mentioned Harvey in 1988 (4th), Martinez came 5th in 2014 (inheriting Moyes' team before he ruined what we had). Moyes got us 4th in 2005, and 5th back to back in 08 and 09.

A Cup Semi Final - Moyes had us in 3. Other than him, Harvey in 1988 (League Cup) and FA Cup in 1989, Joe Royle in 1995 and Martinez both League Cup and FA Cup in 2016.

This is why I view Moyes in high regard and i'd say he is clearly our best manager since Howard Kendall in the 1980's due to the longevity and what he achieved in that period (although over a short period, I would have Royle over him of course with the FA Cup win and 6th placed finish).

Then you look at what he's achieved whilst at West Ham having taken them from a bottom half side to qualifying for Europe 2 years running and also getting them to a European Semi Final.
 

Fella has west ham in Europe two years on the spin. All while getting to a europa semi and destroyed by a early red card.

Had us in Europe regularly aswell and we have barely a sniff of it since he left.

We have just survived relegation and spent half a billion for the pleasure on the second last game. And lads in here having a laugh at moyes.

Shamless.
 

I note alot of people reference the loss in the fa cup final to chelsea in 2009 and getting battered at home to Wigan who went on to beat City in the FA Cup Final and now his most recent defeat to Frankfurt in the semi finals of the Europa League who went on to beat Rangers in the final

but here's a little known fact not many people will remember, in his second full season in charge with us in 2003-2004, we lost to Middlesbrough on pens in the League Cup who eventually went on to win the competition.

here are the highlights of that game for anyone interested, pea roller osman missed our pen.

 
RomanReigns said:
I note alot of people reference the loss in the fa cup final to chelsea in 2009 and getting battered at home to Wigan who went on to beat City in the FA Cup Final and now his most recent defeat to Frankfurt in the semi finals of the Europa League who went on to beat Rangers in the final

but here's a little known fact not many people will remember, in his second full season in charge with us in 2003-2004, we lost to Middlesbrough on pens in the League Cup who eventually went on to win the competition.

here are the highlights of that game for anyone interested, pea roller osman missed our pen.

Click to expand...


Portsmouth won an FA cup, Cardiff got to two finals. He is a good manager but if he was elite he would have won something by now.
 

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