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Duncan Ferguson the coach

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davek said:
Why look for continuity at all if none of them have had success?
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Because Messi wouldn't win League 2 if his team mates were a bunch of fat fellas from a Kirkby pub.

Individual failure is different to collective failure. Obviously. Judging Ferguson's individual ability as a coach based on Everton overall being a complete trainwreck for years is irrational.
 
Tubey said:
Because Messi wouldn't win League 2 if his team mates were a bunch of fat fellas from a Kirkby pub.

Individual failure is different to collective failure. Obviously. Judging Ferguson's individual ability as a coach based on Everton overall being a complete trainwreck for years is irrational.
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So you think it'd have been appropriate to retain Erwin Koeman or Graeme Jones or Steve Round?

Just wondering how one of the first team coaching staff avoids the reckoning at each turn when there is seemingly no criteria at all for keeping him on. Maybe you can illuminate?
 
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davek said:
So you think it'd have been appropriate to retain Erwin Koeman or Graeme Jones or Steve Round?

Just wondering how one of the first team coaching staff avoids the reckoning at each turn when there is seemingly no criteria at all for keeping him on. Maybe you cam illuminate?
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No criteria? What criteria are you calling for his head for? You have literally nothing valid to criticise him for - he's done his job, his employer has retained his services, he has no controversies in that role to speak of and absolutely no indication of incompetency in the job.

If he's here because of cronyism and he was blatantly unsuited to the role, then sure, I'd be with you on this (and let's face it there's an element of that there because of his past association with the club but that applies to virtually every professional football club in the world) - but there's absolutely no evidence that is the case.
 
Tubey said:
Because Messi wouldn't win League 2 if his team mates were a bunch of fat fellas from a Kirkby pub.

Individual failure is different to collective failure. Obviously. Judging Ferguson's individual ability as a coach based on Everton overall being a complete trainwreck for years is irrational.
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Individual failure and collective failure are anything but necessarily mutually exclusive. So, to assess Big Dunc’s coaching ‘chops’ , without taking some consideration to overall collective performance, would be a smidgeon remiss/head in sand. Which of course is just what Everton is...’the family club’. And Big Dunc has a job for life on the back of that; no more, no less.
 

Tubey said:
No criteria? What criteria are you calling for his head for? You have literally nothing valid to criticise him for - he's done his job, his employer has retained his services, he has no controversies in that role to speak of and absolutely no indication of incompetency in the job.

If he's here because of cronyism and he was blatantly unsuited to the role, then sure, I'd be with you on this (and let's face it there's an element of that there because of his past association with the club but that applies to virtually every professional football club in the world) - but there's absolutely no evidence that is the case.
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If he's such a good coach that he outperforms all those he's sat alongside - and who have been sacked - why isn't he a manager...or considered for the manager's job here?

If we're saying that DF is like Fred the doorman and Jimmy the kitman - old retainers kept by the club out of a sense of duty and nostalgia - then ok. But please let's not claim he's there on merit. He clearly isn't.
 
deipnosophist said:
Individual failure and collective failure are anything but necessarily mutually exclusive. So, to assess Big Dunc’s coaching ‘chops’ , without taking some consideration to overall collective performance, would be a smidgeon remiss/head in sand. Which of course is just what Everton is...’the family club’. And Big Dunc has a job for life on the back of that; no more, no less.
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Haha OK... Just to see how Everton are somehow distinct in this approach, I took 5 minutes to look at the current staff at five high profile clubs in the Premier League and stopped as soon as I spotted an ex-player on the books.

Arsenal - Steve Bould
Man City - Brian Kidd
Man Utd - Nicky Butt
Chelsea - Jody Morris
Tottenham - Steffen Freund

Mad that ain't it. Guess they're all 'family clubs' too and they have a job for life, with no thought given to their competency in their jobs.
 
Bet ya if you met him in perso
davek said:
If he's such a good coach that he outperforms all those he's sat alongside - and who have been sacked - why isn't he a manager...or considered for the manager's job here?

If we're saying that DF is like Fred the doorman and Jimmy the kitman - old retainers kept by the club out of a sense of duty and nostalgia - then ok. But please let's not claim he's there on merit. He clearly isn't.
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bet ya if you met him in person you give it the arl well in dunc boss blue you mate am made up your still here
 
davek said:
If he's such a good coach that he outperforms all those he's sat alongside - and who have been sacked - why isn't he a manager...or considered for the manager's job here?

If we're saying that DF is like Fred the doorman and Jimmy the kitman - old retainers kept by the club out of a sense of duty and nostalgia - then ok. But please let's not claim he's there on merit. He clearly isn't.
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OK, tell me exactly what he's done to show he isn't there on merit. As in give me an example of his incompetency in the job.

Ta.
 
Tubey said:
Haha OK... Just to see how Everton are somehow distinct in this approach, I took 5 minutes to look at the current staff at five high profile clubs in the Premier League and stopped as soon as I spotted an ex-player on the books.

Arsenal - Steve Bould
Man City - Brian Kidd
Man Utd - Nicky Butt
Chelsea - Jody Morris
Tottenham - Steffen Freund

Mad that ain't it. Guess they're all 'family clubs' too and they have a job for life, with no thought given to their competency in their jobs.
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You might pole vault to such conclusion; that is your (energy sapping) prerogative. However, you might want to research how many of those other clubs’ ex players (who operate as first team coaches) have survived three (!!) different managerial regimes.
Get back to me on this in your own good time...
 

deipnosophist said:
You might pole vault to such conclusion; that is your (energy sapping) prerogative. However, you might want to research how many of those other clubs’ ex players (who operate as first team coaches) have survived three (!!) different managerial regimes.
Get back to me on this in your own good time...
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I believe the answer is all of them except Steve Bould, due to the longevity of Wenger.

Nicky Butt (2012), Jody Morris (2014), Brian Kidd (2009 or 2013) and Steffen Freund (2012).
 
Tubey said:
I believe the answer is all of them except Steve Bould, due to the longevity of Wenger.

Nicky Butt (2012), Jody Morris (2014), Brian Kidd (2009 or 2013) and Steffen Freund (2012).
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I dont think Nicky butt is a first team coach...youth academy I believe. Steffen Freund is technical coordinator at Spurs...no coaching at all. Brian Kidd spent a number of years at Utd under SAF, not like Bug Dunc who wouldn’t get a job anywhere else..
So a bit of comparing apples and oranges I think Tubey. But I don’t have a particularly heavy axe to grind with Big Dunc for getting a job on the basis of us being a family club that looks after its own...I love the fact he bleeds blue and does a great gurn.
Good stuff!!
 
Over the last few years we have stagnated in most positions. I haven’t seen any goalkeepers, centerbacks, full back, wingers or center midfielders really get better than they were to begin with.
I do think though that Lukaku, Niasse, Tosun (though only a short time), Calvert-Lewin have all improved over the last few years.
Whether Ferguson has anything to do with that I have no idea but it seems to be the only position I’ve seen notable progression and development in and I remember specifically Lukaku talking about his work with Ferguson being great and DCL as well (as well as with Rooney).

...I’ve certainly not seen him ruin any players the way Koeman and Allardyce seemed to with our defence and midfield so hard to have an issue
 

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