ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

[catcherintherye]

I also enjoyed how he rebuffed the charge of nazism by underlining his expert knowledge of a nazi organisation.

It's a good theory Dave, but the problem is he's not very knowledgable, and seems to think they drew support from a social group that is widely regarded as distinguished about 100 years earlier. There was no feudalism in Weimar Germany.

He also seems to have missed the part where I clearly stated my own take on the Nazi's social base is just one theory. I am quite happy to acknowledge there are other interpretations so his "gotcha" moment sort of falls a bit flat when I've already acknowledged it is a contested viewpoint. I should make clear, the viewpoint that they drew support from the peasantry is not one of those credible theories.

 

[trueblue84]

Ah ok, so which grown ups books would you recommend that I read? I mean for clarity there weren't really peasants in Germany beyond the 19th century (and most historians accept they ceased to exist at some point in the first half the century before the Nazis). So I struggle to see a serious case that the Nazi's social base was heavily based in an group ofpeople who were distinguished about 100 yeras previously as the modes of production updated.

As for the "middle class" yes as stated the Mittlestand provided a lot of support, especially in terms of voters. However in terms of the street element I've always felt the Lumpenproliteriat was a key driver.

I mean if you want to acquaint yourself with a couple of (the myriad) of texts that support this notion there's a paper here

"Fascism further tends to find recruits among the lumpenproletariat, with offers of social mobility won through conquest and pillage."

Or here https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm
"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat"

There are obviously different theories, one as a kind of ruling class reaction, others as totalitarian disjuncture with the system. As I noted to Dave, the above is only the one I subscribe too.

You'll have to explain to me which bit lacked understanding about Liverpool (are you confusing Liverpool the city with Liverpool the football club perhaps?).

I'm not sure what "Cliffie Marshall" is, have you spelt this correctly, or have you made another mistake in not bothering to properly research one of Everton's black footballers actual names were?

As for escaping a ban, thats obviously up to the mods to decide, but I'd imagine it will be quite difficult to ban someone for telling the truth, however inconvenient and difficult it is.

I'll await your suggestions on "grown up books" on the existence German peasantry in the early 20th century. As you say, a little knowledge is dangerous and all that.

 

[catcherintherye]

anyone else love the irony of this?

Imagine being trolled about being a teenager by a guy who can't spell or know how to use capital letters at the start of sentences. Does he constitute "grown up books" to mean none picture books I wonder?

 

[catcherintherye]

I should add, I do find the behaviour very strange, that you spend years on an opposing rivals forum, pretending to support them and hate your team. You jeapardise this deep cover mission, because some guy states he doesn't like racism, and hasn't recognised that it was actual the long distinguished peasantry who were the social base of Nazism not the lumpenproliteriat, I mean, is that the hill you really want to die on? An inaccurate understanding of a niche point of history.

 

[catcherintherye]

Actually, the bottom bit about being balanced and not stooping to name calling was my reply to him, along with informing him that I actually AM local, and a four decade season ticket holder - the way I quoted it was probably confusingly done. Though the point does stand that he said I'd contradicted myself several times in my original reply to him, which I clearly didn't, yet offered no example of supposed contradiction.

He really was a sanctimonious buffoon.

All very strange. He thought I was being too hateful to Liverpool FC, while at the same time telling me I'd never hate them as much as him. I'm not sure what they actually think they're achieving on here with such behaviour?

 

[random]

Ah ok, so which grown ups books would you recommend that I read?

In the GOT book club thread @Professor Toffee recently recommended Hubris (Hitler) by Ian Kershaw, it covers the years up to 1936, its a bit hard going in places but explains in detail the make up of the Nazi party when he took over.

Amazon Link

 

[cronullasharks]

All very strange. He thought I was being too hateful to Liverpool FC, while at the same time telling me I'd never hate them as much as him. I'm not sure what they actually think they're achieving on here with such behaviour?

Well i don't think mr jimmy husband was on any kopite radars so well done catcher.

You'll out another 20 by the weekend lol

 

[catcherintherye]

In the GOT book club thread @Professor Toffee recently recommended Hubris (Hitler) by Ian Kershaw, it covers the years up to 1936, its a bit hard going in places but explains in detail the make up of the Nazi party when he took over.

Amazon Link

Kershaws works on Hitler are very informative, he is the leading historian on it, particularly in this country.

 

[catcherintherye]

Well i don't think mr jimmy husband was on any kopite radars so well done catcher.

You'll out another 20 by the weekend lol

If you confuse the German peasantry with the lumpenproliteriat, it really is a step too far.

 

[catcherintherye]

In the GOT book club thread @Professor Toffee recently recommended Hubris (Hitler) by Ian Kershaw, it covers the years up to 1936, its a bit hard going in places but explains in detail the make up of the Nazi party when he took over.

Amazon Link

I mean it's worth noting this passage of that very book (pages 346)

"The crisis merely brought to a head—not for the last time—the structural conflict built into the NSDAP between the party’s organisation and that of the SA… The contempt of these “party soldiers” for the “civilians”…was a constant. Regular reminders that they were subordinate to the party organisation were not always swallowed by the stormtroopers, who felt that they were the ones who went where the going was toughest, who suffered the casualties from the street warfare with the Communists and Socialists".

The was certainly a conflict there, as the Nazis were based on often competing social groups. The rearlier members, and those centred around the SA were more drawn from the Lumpen elements of society. The more respectable sections, and more of it's electoral vote base began to rest upon the Mittlestand.

 

[tsubaki]

In the GOT book club thread @Professor Toffee recently recommended Hubris (Hitler) by Ian Kershaw, it covers the years up to 1936, its a bit hard going in places but explains in detail the make up of the Nazi party when he took over.

Amazon Link

Konrad Heiden’s “The Fuhrer” is a great read as well, especially as much of it was written at the time.

 

[catcherintherye]

Konrad Heiden’s “The Fuhrer” is a great read as well, especially as much of it was written at the time.

I must admit, I've not read any of him!

 

[larbert toffee]

Ah ok, so which grown ups books would you recommend that I read? I mean for clarity there weren't really peasants in Germany beyond the 19th century (and most historians accept they ceased to exist at some point in the first half the century before the Nazis). So I struggle to see a serious case that the Nazi's social base was heavily based in an group ofpeople who were distinguished about 100 yeras previously as the modes of production updated.

As for the "middle class" yes as stated the Mittlestand provided a lot of support, especially in terms of voters. However in terms of the street element I've always felt the Lumpenproliteriat was a key driver.

I mean if you want to acquaint yourself with a couple of (the myriad) of texts that support this notion there's a paper here

"Fascism further tends to find recruits among the lumpenproletariat, with offers of social mobility won through conquest and pillage."

Or here https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm
"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat"

There are obviously different theories, one as a kind of ruling class reaction, others as totalitarian disjuncture with the system. As I noted to Dave, the above is only the one I subscribe too.

You'll have to explain to me which bit lacked understanding about Liverpool (are you confusing Liverpool the city with Liverpool the football club perhaps?).

I'm not sure what "Cliffie Marshall" is, have you spelt this correctly, or have you made another mistake in not bothering to properly research one of Everton's black footballers actual names were?

As for escaping a ban, thats obviously up to the mods to decide, but I'd imagine it will be quite difficult to ban someone for telling the truth, however inconvenient and difficult it is.

I'll await your suggestions on "grown up books" on the existence German peasantry in the early 20th century. As you say, a little knowledge is dangerous and all that.

How can he possibly come back from that Catcher?

 

[jaycee]

Ah ok, so which grown ups books would you recommend that I read? I mean for clarity there weren't really peasants in Germany beyond the 19th century (and most historians accept they ceased to exist at some point in the first half the century before the Nazis). So I struggle to see a serious case that the Nazi's social base was heavily based in an group ofpeople who were distinguished about 100 yeras previously as the modes of production updated.

As for the "middle class" yes as stated the Mittlestand provided a lot of support, especially in terms of voters. However in terms of the street element I've always felt the Lumpenproliteriat was a key driver.

I mean if you want to acquaint yourself with a couple of (the myriad) of texts that support this notion there's a paper here

"Fascism further tends to find recruits among the lumpenproletariat, with offers of social mobility won through conquest and pillage."

Or here https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm
"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat"

There are obviously different theories, one as a kind of ruling class reaction, others as totalitarian disjuncture with the system. As I noted to Dave, the above is only the one I subscribe too.

You'll have to explain to me which bit lacked understanding about Liverpool (are you confusing Liverpool the city with Liverpool the football club perhaps?).

I'm not sure what "Cliffie Marshall" is, have you spelt this correctly, or have you made another mistake in not bothering to properly research one of Everton's black footballers actual names were?

As for escaping a ban, thats obviously up to the mods to decide, but I'd imagine it will be quite difficult to ban someone for telling the truth, however inconvenient and difficult it is.

I'll await your suggestions on "grown up books" on the existence German peasantry in the early 20th century. As you say, a little knowledge is dangerous and all that.

Try this

 

[PM123]

It's a good theory Dave, but the problem is he's not very knowledgable, and seems to think they drew support from a social group that is widely regarded as distinguished about 100 years earlier. There was no feudalism in Weimar Germany.

He also seems to have missed the part where I clearly stated my own take on the Nazi's social base is just one theory. I am quite happy to acknowledge there are other interpretations so his "gotcha" moment sort of falls a bit flat when I've already acknowledged it is a contested viewpoint. I should make clear, the viewpoint that they drew support from the peasantry is not one of those credible theories.

I don't think you understand the word "distinguished"...