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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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Great story that, @the esk about your grandads mate.

The likes of Shankly, Catterick, Labby, Ball etc were long before my time but they are truly from a different era of gentlemen in the game, not like today's mercenaries.

It's an era that I wish we still enjoyed to be honest.
 
the esk said:
Firstly, his upbringing, born in Glenbuck, in the Ayrshire coal fields, lived in a cottage on “miner’s row”, the ninth of ten children.

His political ideas were a product of his hard surroundings in Glenbuck. He had a good grasp of politics having educated himself on the subject both from books and life. Shankly's political leanings were to emerge in his later football life when it was clear he has shown noticeable animosity towards some directors of clubs. His life experiences were based on his education, and particularly on the works of Robert Burns. He was later to use the famous Scottish poet to reinforce his own philosophy:

"Burns was early socialist - the first was Jesus Christ of course. He didn’t think that God made people to be unequal, he thought everyone should share in the work and the rewards".

Source: David P. Worthington BA (Hons), PG Dip, MA.

Baird Institute, Cumnock December 1997

His belief in collectivism, of everyone working for the common good, defined him to his core.

“If I became a bin-man tomorrow,” he told me in 1975, “I’d be the greatest bin-man who ever lived. I’d have everyone working with me, succeeding and sharing out the success.

“I’d make sure they were paid a decent wage with the best bonuses and that we all worked hard to achieve our goals.

Some might say, ‘Ah but they’re only bin-men, why do we need to reward them so well for a job anyone can do?’ But I’d ask them why they believe they are more important than a bin-man.

“I’d ask them how proud they’d feel if their dirty city became the cleanest in the world? Then ask who made them proud? The bin-men.”


Source:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/brian-reade-bill-shankly-not-2239293#ixzz37HHtszd8

His own words:

“The socialism I believe in is everyone working for the same goal and everyone having a share of the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life”

My own experience:

My Grandad's best mate was a turnstile operator on the main stand at Anfield when not working at Cammell Lairds. Cutting a long story short, he suffered an injury at CL and could not work for a long time including the turnstiles at Anfield. Bill Shankly used to call in and see him at home, usually once a week to chat about football - not earth shattering, but an indication of the type of man he was.
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Apart from the first source they are the usual touchstone anecdotes reached for to 'prove' shankly's 'socialism'.

That isn't socialism though. They're comments in favour of an egalitarian view of how things should be rather than going along with a rampant individualism that rewards the fittest and strongest. They're merely words. Is Brian Clough a socialist for opposing the invasion of pit villages during the Miners Strike? I suppose in this day and age he'd be described as such. These people didn't have a view of transforming society: they merely commented on disparity of opportunity/the misuse of state power in one or two fragmentary comments. Even the Christian socialists you lump Shankly in with had a critique of capitalism and a plan of action to transform it. As far as I'm aware neither the likes of Shankly or Clough were part of any movement that takes on a similar aim.

In other words, as far as I'm concerned, the sound bites around 'socialism' were little more than part and parcel of the circus Shankly toted around with him to foster his own image as a man of the people.
 

Groucho said:
All talk, Shankly there. He never was a binman, whereas Nev was actually Wales' most feared binnie.

If your purple bin wasn't out on a Thursday (handles facing the kerb), that was it for a fortnight, and no messing.
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Just be glad he isn't in the bin biz in these days of recycling separation. He'd leave your garbage in the hot sun and as you attempt to pursue the garbage truck he'd laugh as you tripped and fell, garbage juice soaking into your slippers.
All you'd see would be a moustache disappearing over the horizon and the memory of a t shirt emblazoned with the words that left you in no doubt that this was a bin man who did indeed love his wife.
 
davek said:
Apart from the first source they are the usual touchstone anecdotes reached for to 'prove' shankly's 'socialism'.

That isn't socialism though. They're comments in favour of an egalitarian view of how things should be rather than going along with a rampant individualism that rewards the fittest and strongest. They're merely words. Is Brian Clough a socialist for opposing the invasion of pit villages during the Miners Strike? I suppose in this day and age he'd be described as such. These people didn't have a view of transforming society: they merely commented on disparity of opportunity/the misuse of state power in one or two fragmentary comments. Even the Christian socialists you lump Shankly in with had a critique of capitalism and a plan of action to transform it. As far as I'm aware neither the likes of Shankly or Clough were part of any movement that takes on a similar aim.

In other words, as far as I'm concerned, the sound bites around 'socialism' were little more than part and parcel of the circus Shankly toted around with him to foster his own image as a man of the people.
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I'm not suggesting he was part of any formal socialist movement, far from it, but I believe there is sufficient evidence through his background, his words and actions to believe he followed socialist principles. Clough campaigned for the Labour Party on several occasions although I do not know if he was a member or not.
 
rascal said:
What a wonderful readership, David is correct though. Probably.

And it's funny to see how LFC fans knock United fans for being gloryhunters from down south. It's as if they permanently stare at their belly button.

It's also nice to see that the LFC marketing department can't count.
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Trophies won because of a corrupt FA and refs only count for half though.
 

the esk said:
I'm not suggesting he was part of any formal socialist movement, far from it, but I believe there is sufficient evidence through his background, his words and actions to believe he followed socialist principles. Clough campaigned for the Labour Party on several occasions although I do not know if he was a member or not.
Click to expand...

I suppose football sells itself historically as the peoples game and needs its stereotypical figures like Shankly, Fergie, Clough (men of 'the Left') to underline that dimension of the game. Scratch below the oft cited quotes and anecdotes though and there's not much to it - and it can be played up to by certain contrarian managers.

Shankly really was an instrumentalist: he positioned a very average Liverpool team he inherited as underdogs looking to break through when he first arrived and then continued that imagery when they were a success by framing them as The Red Army and representing something more than a football club - and their fans and media lapped the BS up. I'd view any utterance of Shankly regarding socialism in that context. He left no stone unturned to project himself as the personification of that LFC image he himself created.

Good manager - very good- but basically a fraud where the politics/social conscience comes into it.
 
davek said:
I suppose football sells itself historically as the peoples game and needs its stereotypical figures like Shankly, Fergie, Clough (men of 'the Left') to underline that dimension of the game. Scratch below the oft cited quotes and anecdotes though and there's not much to it - and it can be played up to by certain contrarian managers.

Shankly really was an instrumentalist: he positioned a very average Liverpool team he inherited as underdogs looking to break through when he first arrived and then continued that imagery when they were a success by framing them as The Red Army and representing something more than a football club - and their fans and media lapped the BS up. I'd view any utterance of Shankly regarding socialism in that context. He left no stone unturned to project himself as the personification of that LFC image he himself created.

Good manager - very good- but basically a fraud where the politics/social conscience comes into it.
Click to expand...

Interesting as ever Dave

Do you see any of Shankly in Martinez?
 

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