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Electronic music thread

LostLegend said:
In defense of Pendulum, there was nothing like them at the time. It sounds overly polished and overproduced in retrospect, but I remember when this remix came out and a lot of people in the DnB scene were losing their minds to this.
Along with some of the other stuff they were putting out, there was a genuine feeling that they were a step above at the time.
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Thats a bit of a myth about nothing being like them at the time. When Vault first came out everyone assumed it was a new Fresh track before finding out it was some new lads called Pendulum. That said they definitely went on to dominate the mainstream side of the scene from that point onwards, pimarily because their tunes just sounded so much fatter than everyone elses.

This was also when I started losing interest in DNB. The appeal of DNB for me and my mates was that it was a genre which took influence from funk, soul, jazz etc and mixed that with current day bass culture. It was electronic music but it had strong organic elements due to sampling culture, it wasn't all synthetic. Pendulum just sounded like dnb influenced by stadium rock... lots of bold but very basic sounding synth leads playing cheesy melodies, 200hz snare drums, everything turned up to 11, big focus on mid-range frequencies, it’s the polar opposite of what I like about DNB.

I cant remember which producer it was but they described Pendulum as what DNB would sound like if black culture had never influenced the scene... bit harsh but reasonably accurate.

edit: I feel like I've written this exact same post in this thread before lol
 
LostLegend said:
In defense of Pendulum, there was nothing like them at the time. It sounds overly polished and overproduced in retrospect, but I remember when this remix came out and a lot of people in the DnB scene were losing their minds to this.
Along with some of the other stuff they were putting out, there was a genuine feeling that they were a step above at the time.
Click to expand...

Aye, ignore the rest of their work and you've still got two widely-accepted killer classics from Pendulum (Vault & Bacteria Remix).

As much as I love Messiah & The Nine...I don't think neither producer could find that same Grade-A quality again. Making one classic is grand, still.

I watched this 80-minute docu a while back, really decent stuff, interviews with most of the main players. From 31:40 they talk about Pendulum, making the same point you just did:




longers said:
Thats a bit of a myth about nothing being like them at the time.

I cant remember which producer it was but they described Pendulum as what DNB would sound like if black culture had never influenced the scene... bit harsh but reasonably accurate.
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Grooverider hugely promoted that sound, so I expect he would disagree about Pendulum lacking 'black culture' in their sound. The UK DnB scene prided itself on being colour-blind anyway, whichever producer made that comment was being unnecessarily snobby. Race & skin-colour as a talking-point is everywhere these days, the DnB scene back then tried to not make such a big deal out of it. That documentary gives a positive feel that that they were all in it for the music and for the scene, and felt pride when one of their own got mainstream success: whether it was Roni Size winning an award, or Pendulum getting radio-play.
 
dholliday said:
Grooverider hugely promoted that sound, so I expect he would disagree about Pendulum lacking 'black culture' in their sound. The UK DnB scene prided itself on being colour-blind anyway, whichever producer made that comment was being unnecessarily snobby. Race & skin-colour as a talking-point is everywhere these days, the DnB scene back then tried to not make such a big deal out of it. That documentary gives a positive feel that that they were all in it for the music and for the scene, and felt pride when one of their own got mainstream success: whether it was Roni Size winning an award, or Pendulum getting radio-play.
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It may well be snobby but from a purely musical perspective its hard to hear any black influence in their music, it sounds like stadium rock DNB, which is fine and makes sense given they come from a rock/metal background. What they did they did well, im just not into it as its devoid of the things that I enjoy about DNB.
 
longers said:
It may well be snobby but from a purely musical perspective its hard to hear any black influence in their music, it sounds like stadium rock DNB, which is fine and makes sense given they come from a rock/metal background. What they did they did well, im just not into it as its devoid of the things that I enjoy about DNB.
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What is black influence and how does it sound? Do you mean funky elements in the drum patterns? Drum n Bass, and before that Jungle, is evolved from UK hardcore rave. Rave was influenced by a mix of US & European House as well as 70's Funk drums, Doctor Who-style eerie sci-fi sounds and 80's new-romantic electro beats. Going back up the chain to Jungle and we hear Jamaican influences. Checking out Roni Size we hear he likes his soul tunes, probably an aficionado of US soul music, but we don't hear that when we enjoy the original Bacteria (a track you praised, so presumably has 'black influence'?).

There's so many branches that there's no such identifiable thing as a single 'black influence'. 70's Funk is very different to Kingston Ragga, which is very different to soul. It's all a gloriously-mixed melting pot of different cultures. I would even argue Pendulum's more musical sequencing of that main Bacteria synth-line recalls a somewhat Miles Davis contemplative style than Ed/Optical's placings, which were a bit minimal and thus more kraftwerkian.
 
dholliday said:
What is black influence and how does it sound? Do you mean funky elements in the drum patterns? Drum n Bass, and before that Jungle, is evolved from UK hardcore rave. Rave was influenced by a mix of US & European House as well as 70's Funk drums, Doctor Who-style eerie sci-fi sounds and 80's new-romantic electro beats. Going back up the chain to Jungle and we hear Jamaican influences. Checking out Roni Size we hear he likes his soul tunes, probably an aficionado of US soul music, but we don't hear that when we enjoy the original Bacteria (a track you praised, so presumably has 'black influence'?).

There's so many branches that there's no such identifiable thing as a single 'black influence'. 70's Funk is very different to Kingston Ragga, which is very different to soul. It's all a gloriously-mixed melting pot of different cultures. I would even argue Pendulum's more musical sequencing of that main Bacteria synth-line recalls a more Miles Davis contemplative style than Ed/Optical's placings, which were more minimal and thus more kraftwerkian.
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I think most people understand what black influence is within the context of DNB/Jungle, you've given examples of it yourself (breakbeats, sub bass/bassbin culture etc). You just have to look at the shift in demographics within the scene, the crowds used to be very diverse but over time they have become predominantly white. It's not a coincidence, its a reflection on the changing sound of the music... at least in terms of the mainstream. The same thing happened to dubstep only in a far more extreme way, it went from stripped back breaks, dub bass and tons of reverb to the electronic equivalent of Nu Metal within about 2 years.

Its all good though, music changes, im too old to properly care now and there are still artists putting out stuff I like, its just a shame they get such little attention relative to the big dawgs.
 
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longers said:
I think most people understand what black influence is within the context of DNB/Jungle, you've given examples of it yourself (breakbeats, sub bass/bassbin culture etc). You just have to look at the shift in demographics within the scene, the crowds used to be very diverse but over time they have become predominantly white. It's not a coincidence, its a reflection on the changing sound of the music... at least in terms of the mainstream. The same thing happened to dubstep only in a far more extreme way, it went from stripped back breaks, dub bass and tons of reverb to the electronic equivalent of Nu Metal.
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agree on the change in sound of both DnB & dubstep, and like you i prefer how both sounded before: generally the music had more mystery, more story-telling via atmosphere: qualities i look for regardless of genre.

I wasn't aware of any shift in demographics, haven't partied in the UK since 2005! if that shift is to a less diverse crowd then that is a shame, the music will suffer. As it has. Amongst my tons of 1995-2005 DnB i've also got a 2018 3cd-set (Arena). No vibes there, just over-produced hi-fidelity noise...superficially-impressive, but difficult to enjoy.

my own theory for this change in sound is an over-reliance on computer-software to make tunes, plus the slowing down of underground party scenes due to combination of governmental interference and smartphone-culture killing scene-spontaneity. But you also have a point: the scene becoming less diverse inevitably reduces the places the sound can go, as most producers react to the energies of the scene.

Bit of all of the above then. Any theories as to why the crowd has devolved in this way? As far as i know the producers themselves are still at it: Grooverider, Dillinja, Roni etc

This article doesn't really have the answer, maybe something in there you might find interesting:

https://djmag.com/longreads/drum-bass-finally-addressing-its-diversity-problem

i'm not a fan of identity-politics, finding it often counter-productive. But if the crowd-demographics really have become less diverse, then there's something going on.
 
dholliday said:
agree on the change in sound of both DnB & dubstep, and like you i prefer how both sounded before: generally the music had more mystery, more story-telling via atmosphere: qualities i look for regardless of genre.

I wasn't aware of any shift in demographics, haven't partied in the UK since 2005! if that shift is to a less diverse crowd then that is a shame, the music will suffer. As it has. Amongst my tons of 1995-2005 DnB i've also got a 2018 3cd-set (Arena). No vibes there, just over-produced hi-fidelity noise...superficially-impressive, but difficult to enjoy.

my own theory for this change in sound is an over-reliance on computer-software to make tunes, plus the slowing down of underground party scenes due to combination of governmental interference and smartphone-culture killing scene-spontaneity. But you also have a point: the scene becoming less diverse inevitably reduces the places the sound can go, as most producers react to the energies of the scene.

Bit of all of the above then. Any theories as to why the crowd has devolved in this way? As far as i know the producers themselves are still at it: Grooverider, Dillinja, Roni etc

This article doesn't really have the answer, maybe something in there you might find interesting:

https://djmag.com/longreads/drum-bass-finally-addressing-its-diversity-problem

i'm not a fan of identity-politics, finding it often counter-productive. But if the crowd-demographics really have become less diverse, then there's something going on.
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In my experience dub nights always have had and still have the most diverse crowds, both racially and in age.

DnB is all provincial white kids in hoodies and muddy trainers.
 

Blue 1 said:
In my experience dub nights always have had and still have the most diverse crowds, both racially and in age.

DnB is all provincial white kids in hoodies and muddy trainers.
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suppose it depends where in Blighty one parties. in London all these parties across the genres were pretty diverse, attracted all sorts. if i had to rank them the House-music scenes were more colourful than the others. not the hard-house stuff, mind lol

don't think i've been to anything that can be called a dub night. is that Burial-type sound or more jamaica-flavour?

post-london done a few goa-festivals in europe: thinking about it the racial make-up has been very white, despite the indian/hindu influences. looking at music history black american musicians had a ball with psychedelia with the likes of Sun Ra & Funkadelic, seems like a connection was missed when goa/psy-trance became big. more's the pity: mainstream goa/psy sounds very tired these days, same problem with DnB: superproduced, shiny as fook, boring vibes.
 
dholliday said:
suppose it depends where in Blighty one parties. in London all these parties across the genres were pretty diverse, attracted all sorts. if i had to rank them the House-music scenes were more colourful than the others. not the hard-house stuff, mind lol

don't think i've been to anything that can be called a dub night. is that Burial-type sound or more jamaica-flavour?

post-london done a few goa-festivals in europe: thinking about it the racial make-up has been very white, despite the indian/hindu influences. looking at music history black american musicians had a ball with psychedelia with the likes of Sun Ra & Funkadelic, seems like a connection was missed when goa/psy-trance became big. more's the pity: mainstream goa/psy sounds very tired these days, same problem with DnB: superproduced, shiny as fook, boring vibes.
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Yeah house crowds tend to be a bit more more diverse.

Dub nights - the likes of Jah Shaka, Iration Steppas, Channel One, Aba Shanti I, Jah Observer, Jah Tubby's etc. UK & Jamaican flavoured really but strictly roots and dub, not dubstep.
 
Blue 1 said:
Dub nights - the likes of Jah Shaka, Iration Steppas, Channel One, Aba Shanti I, Jah Observer, Jah Tubby's etc. UK & Jamaican flavoured really but strictly roots and dub, not dubstep.
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Not familiar with any of them, tho' i do enjoy a bit of Jah Wobble (white man's jah lol). Dunno if dub, i love it tho'...top picks from his best album below, gorgeous vibes, effective west-meets-east mishmash, lovely arabic vocals in the first & last one: Natasha Atlas, i think. my libyan mate, a conservative muslim, wasn't impressed, saying he didn't understand why she sings only of flowers, fields and honey and not of God who made those things...so i guess this means Wobble & co's efforts are spiritually secular, musically right up my street like!










jamaica-flavour: one of my favourite cd's is cd1 of Scratch Perry's Arkology. first time i heard the original: "ahm gonna sendim to outaspace, to faahnd anathar race!". epic! i think a lot of that is dub rather than reggae. this is the highlight, such beautiful vocals, and different to Wobble in that the subject matter isn't secular, which adds richness to the song (that plus it's in english!):

 

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