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England v Croatia
- Thread starter GhostOfDixie
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GhostOfDixie
Player Valuation: £70m
Everyone hates him, because he earns shed loads of cash and has a stupid wife. I think he's a legend and I would have him in my team any day of the week.
Great Dane
Player Valuation: £15m
I next England manager should try and "build a team" combining of an experienced middle and young, pacey and skillful players around them.
Imagine what this team could do if they were given time to gel:
Carson
Richards, Terry, Lescott, Baines
Lennon, Hargreaves, Barry, Bentley
Rooney, Vaughan
Subs: Young, Agbonlahor, SWP, Carrick, Walcott
Of course I'm putting EFC players in where I can, but I believe that the team needs to remove Beckham, Gerrard, Owen, Lampard, A. Cole, J. Cole, Robinson, Ferdinand and Neville. They have had their chance and they blew it! The team above is young and in Terry, Hargreaves and Rooney they will have experience in each chain. They could be the backbone for many years.
Imagine what this team could do if they were given time to gel:
Carson
Richards, Terry, Lescott, Baines
Lennon, Hargreaves, Barry, Bentley
Rooney, Vaughan
Subs: Young, Agbonlahor, SWP, Carrick, Walcott
Of course I'm putting EFC players in where I can, but I believe that the team needs to remove Beckham, Gerrard, Owen, Lampard, A. Cole, J. Cole, Robinson, Ferdinand and Neville. They have had their chance and they blew it! The team above is young and in Terry, Hargreaves and Rooney they will have experience in each chain. They could be the backbone for many years.
As a person I don't really rate him but I could say that about 90% of footballers so it's not a factor in my analysis of him as a footballer.
He has been a very fine player in his time. I don't think his ability ever matched his fame but it would be churlish to overlook his achievements in the game.
I don't think he should play in the Croatia game however, and I think this for a number of reasons.
1) We lack strikers at the moment so it seems likely that we will play with just Crouch up front. Both Cole and SWP are used to playing this system as they play it every week for Chelsea. Beckham on the other hand no longer has the legs to play this system as it requires wide players to switch between 433 and 451 depending on who has the ball (ie it requires pace)
2) It's bad enough that he's playing in a league with such little quality and intensity but when you add in that he's barely playing in this sub-standard league and it's simply no preperation for such a big game.
To contrast that with his positives.
1) Set pieces. You could argue that he delivers a good set piece and no doubt advocates will point to the corner Crouch scored from against Austria, whilst overlooking the dozen or so shockers he sent in either side of the goal. Considering Gerrard and Lampard both take set pieces for their clubs the argument that without him we have no one capable of putting in a cross is nonsense.
GhostOfDixie
Player Valuation: £70m
Ok, to answer these questions.
1) We don't lack strikers, we have Defoe and he has also called up Darren Bent.
We shouldn't play 433/451 because England don't play that way and when they do play a different system they usually come a cropper. This isn't the kind of game to take risks, we should be playing the percentages.
2) I accept this, and I think he is just in a situation he didn't want to be in, but has been forced down that road.
As for his set pieces, there is nobody else. Gerrard may take a good freekick for Liverpool, but Gerrard never performs to the same level for England. Beckham has always performed better for his country.
Ok, so he may have played in a few dodgy corners, so does Mikel Areta would you want anyone else taking set-pieces? As for Lampard he can't take a corner because his go about 100ft in the air giving the keeper time to come and collect.
If we need a goal, and we have a late free kick there is nobody else mentally fit enough to take on that responsibility for England. Plus his vision is still world class.
Apart from Owen, there has not been a more consistent performer for England over the past 10 years.
1) We don't lack strikers, we have Defoe and he has also called up Darren Bent.
We shouldn't play 433/451 because England don't play that way and when they do play a different system they usually come a cropper. This isn't the kind of game to take risks, we should be playing the percentages.
2) I accept this, and I think he is just in a situation he didn't want to be in, but has been forced down that road.
As for his set pieces, there is nobody else. Gerrard may take a good freekick for Liverpool, but Gerrard never performs to the same level for England. Beckham has always performed better for his country.
Ok, so he may have played in a few dodgy corners, so does Mikel Areta would you want anyone else taking set-pieces? As for Lampard he can't take a corner because his go about 100ft in the air giving the keeper time to come and collect.
If we need a goal, and we have a late free kick there is nobody else mentally fit enough to take on that responsibility for England. Plus his vision is still world class.
Apart from Owen, there has not been a more consistent performer for England over the past 10 years.
I,d play beckham tomorrow i think with quite a few of the regulars out we need as much experience as possible and there is nobody better than him for putting a ball on to beanpoles bonce.
Neither Defoe or Bent has played much for Spurs this season so I see no reason why either should play in a match of such importance. Part of the problem for England in the past has been selecting players on reputation rather than form and none of Beckham, Defoe or Bent have any form on which to rely.
As for the tactical side of things, I don't buy that at all. With the exception of Barry/Hargreaves all of the front 6 I mentioned come from Chelsea and Liverpool. Both of those clubs regularly play 433/451 formations so to suggest that those same players won't be able to play it for England makes little sense to me.
As for the tactical side of things, I don't buy that at all. With the exception of Barry/Hargreaves all of the front 6 I mentioned come from Chelsea and Liverpool. Both of those clubs regularly play 433/451 formations so to suggest that those same players won't be able to play it for England makes little sense to me.
GhostOfDixie
Player Valuation: £70m
Well hang on, Crouch hasn't played that much either.
As for form, well Lampards for England has been woeful, Gerrard's general form has been poor. Robinson's been below par yet he will play.
Also with formation, you are suggesting that club football is the same as international football, but it isn't.
We all know the team isn't picked solely on form, it is on reputation, but its also on who you can rely on to get you out of the [Poor language removed] should you need to. There is no man on the pitch for England other than Beckham who you want taking a last minute free-kick. There is also not a player on the pitch who has his vision, his passing range, his ability to play a first time cross into space for players to attack and score. Nobody else has done that, not Gerrard, not Lampard, not SWP!
Be interested to see what Beckham's assists are. But I do recall him creating all the goals against Estonia, he created the goal against Austria, he created and scored goals in the world cup.
What has Gerrard done? Oh yeah he got us out of the [Poor language removed] against Andorra! What has Lampard done? he scored in the last minute against Portugal in the last Euro's. Since then, for country he has been anonymous.
People say, ah but come on they work hard, box to box and cover every blade of grass, cliche bollocks. I don't want a work horse, if the boy's got talent I want to see hero's. I want to see Lampard taking the game by the scruff, looking for the pass or firing one of his seemingly Chelsea only goals.
Same goes for Gerrard.
Well I'll admit that Crouch is hardly my first choice either and if Rooney and Owen were fit then 442 would make sense, but you can only go with what you have available and Crouch has at least scored goals this season. Neither Defoe or Bent have done anything for Spurs.
With the formation I agree about domestic football but both of those teams play that formation regularly in Europe and CL is arguably of a higher standard than internationals.
It's hard to be objective about Beckham really as I find it baffling quite why he is held in such high regard. In 2001 he was outstanding and did more than anyone to get us to the 2002 WC. Sadly he was awful in that tournament, as he has been at every major tournament he's played in. His fame has him alongside Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo et al but the reality is that his ability isn't in the same league as any of those. As you rightly say, the very best players deliver in major tournaments and Beckham hasn't at all. This isn't to say that anyone else has, bar Rooney in 2004 for England and Gerrard in the CL for Liverpool, but a lack of quality elsewhere doesn't make Beckham any better. He's not even the best English player of his generation (Scholes) but because he parades himself in the public eye he's treated like some latter day messiah.
His level of annoyance is up there with Jonny Wilkinson, another person propelled to 'greatness' by Hello readers. People in other countries must laugh at how blooming stupid we are. Kevin Sheedy must wish he was born a few years later because Beckham can do very little the Sheedy couldn't.
With the formation I agree about domestic football but both of those teams play that formation regularly in Europe and CL is arguably of a higher standard than internationals.
It's hard to be objective about Beckham really as I find it baffling quite why he is held in such high regard. In 2001 he was outstanding and did more than anyone to get us to the 2002 WC. Sadly he was awful in that tournament, as he has been at every major tournament he's played in. His fame has him alongside Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo et al but the reality is that his ability isn't in the same league as any of those. As you rightly say, the very best players deliver in major tournaments and Beckham hasn't at all. This isn't to say that anyone else has, bar Rooney in 2004 for England and Gerrard in the CL for Liverpool, but a lack of quality elsewhere doesn't make Beckham any better. He's not even the best English player of his generation (Scholes) but because he parades himself in the public eye he's treated like some latter day messiah.
His level of annoyance is up there with Jonny Wilkinson, another person propelled to 'greatness' by Hello readers. People in other countries must laugh at how blooming stupid we are. Kevin Sheedy must wish he was born a few years later because Beckham can do very little the Sheedy couldn't.
GhostOfDixie
Player Valuation: £70m
Well mate I find this reply utterly amazing I really do.
First of all Jonny Wilkinson won us the world cup in Australia, and he had a big hand in us getting to the final again. That isn't a matter of opinion, that is a matter of fact.
Also to single out Beckham as a failure in World Cup's is incredible. In the last world cup he scored a vital goal and created a vital goal. He has also scored goals in other world cups, remember the free kick against Colombia? Remember the penalty against Argentina? He isn't a goal scorer, but he does create and he does it well. I mean for [Poor language removed]'s sake Madrid wouldn't have signed him if they never thought we was good. And currently he sits on 98 caps, why? because he has the best right foot in the game, and that is also a matter of fact.
Manchester United would not have won as many trophies as they did if it wasn't for him.
Infact, think what you like. You say he isn't the best player of his generation, well you tell me who can play a ball like Beckham? Who can take a free-kick like Beckham? In this country, not abroad?
First of all Jonny Wilkinson won us the world cup in Australia, and he had a big hand in us getting to the final again. That isn't a matter of opinion, that is a matter of fact.
Also to single out Beckham as a failure in World Cup's is incredible. In the last world cup he scored a vital goal and created a vital goal. He has also scored goals in other world cups, remember the free kick against Colombia? Remember the penalty against Argentina? He isn't a goal scorer, but he does create and he does it well. I mean for [Poor language removed]'s sake Madrid wouldn't have signed him if they never thought we was good. And currently he sits on 98 caps, why? because he has the best right foot in the game, and that is also a matter of fact.
Manchester United would not have won as many trophies as they did if it wasn't for him.
Infact, think what you like. You say he isn't the best player of his generation, well you tell me who can play a ball like Beckham? Who can take a free-kick like Beckham? In this country, not abroad?
Like I said in my last post, I don't think he's a bad player, he's been a very good player. What grates me is that his fame gets him a mention alongside the true greats of our generation such as Zidane and Ronaldo. You mention that he scored the odd goal in World Cups, both of those two actually won World Cup's for their country through their performances. Maradonna won the World Cup for Argentina single handedly. This is what I mean, he's been a good player but he isn't a great player, yet his fame surpasses all footballers past and present. That simply can't be right. It's a case of style over substance. Too often in major tournaments he went missing when it mattered. You mention his achievements in the group stages of tournaments but you could also mention his red card against Argentina, his bottled tackle against Brazil, his missed penalty against Portugal.
Regarding Man Utd and players of his generation, it would be quite easy to pick three from that all conquering midfield alone. Roy Keane for instance turned the semi-final against Juventus around almost on his own in 1999. Ryan Giggs has been the best British winger since Best. Paul Scholes is still regarded as the best English player around by people such as Arsene Wenger. None are flash Harry's that court publicity at every turn but I'd have each of them in my team above Beckham any day and I'd be happy to use Ferguson's judgement to back that up. He knew when he sold him that his talents were on the wane and it was typical that he ended up at the celebrity circus that Real had become by that point and not at all surprising that he won just one trophy with them in his time there and that after the Galacticos era he so embodied was broken up and substance lent to the side by the likes of Cannavarro (another who just gets on with things with no fuss).
It's hard to dispute the Wilkinson assertion without sounding pompous but you are new to rugby so it's quite hard not to be. I wonder how many Brits would recognise Percy Montgomery if they passed him in the street? He had a spell playing in Wales a few years back that was largely ignored, yet in the World Cup he kicked the goals that won SA the tournament. His kicking stats were far, far better than Wilkinsons but I doubt you'd find many Bok fans that think he won them the tournament. So Wilkinson kicked the goals, big deal, that is his job and with a success ratio of around 65% he didn't do it very well. Fly half's don't win penalties, they merely try and convert them after other players have won them. When you look at the other job of the fly half, ie that of creating tries, he was woeful. England scored half as many tries in the tournament as Wales for [Poor language removed] sake and Wales were bloody awful. Sure, he can't take all the blame for that but creatively he simply isn't very good when compared to the likes of Larkham and Carter. What he's good at is kicking goals after other people put him in the position to do so. That makes him a decent player, it certainly doesn't make him a great player. But he's the poster boy of the team so he gets undue attention, just like Chabal was for the French team (another who incidently didn't actually contribute an awful lot to the tournament).
Regarding Man Utd and players of his generation, it would be quite easy to pick three from that all conquering midfield alone. Roy Keane for instance turned the semi-final against Juventus around almost on his own in 1999. Ryan Giggs has been the best British winger since Best. Paul Scholes is still regarded as the best English player around by people such as Arsene Wenger. None are flash Harry's that court publicity at every turn but I'd have each of them in my team above Beckham any day and I'd be happy to use Ferguson's judgement to back that up. He knew when he sold him that his talents were on the wane and it was typical that he ended up at the celebrity circus that Real had become by that point and not at all surprising that he won just one trophy with them in his time there and that after the Galacticos era he so embodied was broken up and substance lent to the side by the likes of Cannavarro (another who just gets on with things with no fuss).
It's hard to dispute the Wilkinson assertion without sounding pompous but you are new to rugby so it's quite hard not to be. I wonder how many Brits would recognise Percy Montgomery if they passed him in the street? He had a spell playing in Wales a few years back that was largely ignored, yet in the World Cup he kicked the goals that won SA the tournament. His kicking stats were far, far better than Wilkinsons but I doubt you'd find many Bok fans that think he won them the tournament. So Wilkinson kicked the goals, big deal, that is his job and with a success ratio of around 65% he didn't do it very well. Fly half's don't win penalties, they merely try and convert them after other players have won them. When you look at the other job of the fly half, ie that of creating tries, he was woeful. England scored half as many tries in the tournament as Wales for [Poor language removed] sake and Wales were bloody awful. Sure, he can't take all the blame for that but creatively he simply isn't very good when compared to the likes of Larkham and Carter. What he's good at is kicking goals after other people put him in the position to do so. That makes him a decent player, it certainly doesn't make him a great player. But he's the poster boy of the team so he gets undue attention, just like Chabal was for the French team (another who incidently didn't actually contribute an awful lot to the tournament).
TX Bill
Player Valuation: £80m
Gotta disagree with this statement
No one has ever said that MLS is Premier League caliber and it probably never will be. However the top tier teams (Houston, NE, DC, Chicago, Chivas USA) could easily hold their own in the Coca Cola Championship. Believe me, I've watched both leagues.
So unless you're telling me that the Championship level is "sub-standard" in quality and intensity....
I do agree however that Becks being hurt for most of his first year stint here certainly hasn't helped.
That said, I've always thought he was a very very good player. I've never understood why people couldn't get past all the glitz and glamour and focus on what he does on the field.
Not wanting to get too embroiled in this, I gotta go with Bruce on this. Beckham, good not great and shouldn't be put up on the pedestal that he is. And Real Madrid bought him to make money and sell shirts. Both of which they did in abundance
And TX, MLS is awful. Each time I turn it on, I feel like I could walk into the game and offer something to either team (and I am not that good). The players had so much time on the ball and still consistently made mistakes. Terrible.
And TX, MLS is awful. Each time I turn it on, I feel like I could walk into the game and offer something to either team (and I am not that good). The players had so much time on the ball and still consistently made mistakes. Terrible.
GhostOfDixie
Player Valuation: £70m
ok, Ronaldo and Zidane both played in sides that were world class and had players who each could step up and make a difference. Beckham plays in a side that is lacking in heroes.
Yes he has market value because of his image, but he's a footballer and that's what he loves above everything else.
Now there was a ball that Beckham played to Yorke against Liverpool in an important game, and I know it was a few years back, but he played the ball first time perfectly on to Yorke's head, it was almost like the ball was in an invisible pipe. I don't know a single player in the Premiership who is English that can do that.
How many English players would step up in the last minute of a game, that by the way he dominated both back and front, and score to send his team into the finals. I don't think there are many.
Personally I believe as an Englishman that if it wasn't for David Beckham, this team would not have qualified for the finals that it reached, and the English folk here should be grateful for his ability in those crunch moments. The fact that he makes shedloads outside of football has nothing to do with his ability and his desire to pull on that England shirt and sweat blood for the cause.
Oh and please Bruce, don't patronise me on Rugby, been watching the game for years, just never really got seriously into it at a fanatical stage. I really am starting to get quite narked over your comments. Its easy to sit there and criticise players, but Wilkinson kicked a world cup winning drop goal under immense pressure in the last seconds against the hosts who happen to be one of the best sides in the world.
If you can do that, then fair enough, but until you do I don't think you can sit there and criticise. Sorry mate, but perhaps you should stick to numbers.
Yes he has market value because of his image, but he's a footballer and that's what he loves above everything else.
Now there was a ball that Beckham played to Yorke against Liverpool in an important game, and I know it was a few years back, but he played the ball first time perfectly on to Yorke's head, it was almost like the ball was in an invisible pipe. I don't know a single player in the Premiership who is English that can do that.
How many English players would step up in the last minute of a game, that by the way he dominated both back and front, and score to send his team into the finals. I don't think there are many.
Personally I believe as an Englishman that if it wasn't for David Beckham, this team would not have qualified for the finals that it reached, and the English folk here should be grateful for his ability in those crunch moments. The fact that he makes shedloads outside of football has nothing to do with his ability and his desire to pull on that England shirt and sweat blood for the cause.
Oh and please Bruce, don't patronise me on Rugby, been watching the game for years, just never really got seriously into it at a fanatical stage. I really am starting to get quite narked over your comments. Its easy to sit there and criticise players, but Wilkinson kicked a world cup winning drop goal under immense pressure in the last seconds against the hosts who happen to be one of the best sides in the world.
If you can do that, then fair enough, but until you do I don't think you can sit there and criticise. Sorry mate, but perhaps you should stick to numbers.
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