EST Safe Standing Survey Results

[evertonian thistle]

It isn't badly informed nonsense though, although you probably want it to be for some weird reason, but it isn't. If there had been allocated seating in the lower tier at Hillsborough then you would not have had everyone crowding in to the same two pens. They would have sought to find their allocated seats and there would have been ample seats available. And it's just a simple fact that standing at major football grounds was banned in England as a safety measure in response to the disaster.

If Hillsborough had safe-standing back in 1989, there wouldn't have been a disaster. Safe-standing is very safe.

 

[Dymak]

If Hillsborough had safe-standing back in 1989, there wouldn't have been a disaster. Safe-standing is very safe.

Thanks for agreeing with me that allocated seating, whether 'rail seating' or otherwise, would have most likely prevented the disaster. However your belief that safe standing is indeed safe is not shared by everyone. There will be significant sections of the Evertonian support who would disagree with you, especially if it results in increasing capacity in already busy areas. There are significant sections of Merseyside who disagree with you, not least some of the families I would imagine, and the government doesn't agree with you, and it doesn't look like its going to be implemented any time soon.

 

[The Cowboy]

If Hillsborough had safe-standing back in 1989, there wouldn't have been a disaster. Safe-standing is very safe.

Hmmm. Don't agree with that. You're talking about a great mass of people funneled into an enclosed space. The barriers between each row could've caused their own problems when the numbers started to swell.

Arguably it was the perimeter fencing - the lack of escape - that was the primary factor, not the terracing.

 

[thevorpalblade]

Thanks for agreeing with me that allocated seating, whether 'rail seating' or otherwise, would have most likely prevented the disaster. However your belief that safe standing is indeed safe is not shared by everyone. There will be significant sections of the Evertonian support who would disagree with you, especially if it results in increasing capacity in already busy areas. There are significant sections of Merseyside who disagree with you, not least some of the families I would imagine, and the government doesn't agree with you, and it doesn't look like its going to be implemented any time soon.

Apologies, but..

Safe standing doesn't necessarily mean 'crammed' in.

Shove 10,000 spectators into 5,000 seats and I'm sure you'll agree that seating isn't necessarily safe.

I have an idea. Let's empty all stadiums and encourage everyone to watch the match on telly. Apparently driving is very hazardous. But only after we've attended a health and safety course on the dangers of electricity and tripping over the TV remote control, etc.

 

[EveBlue]

The rest of the world believes standing is safe enough, I stood at Elm Park, reading, for 6 years. I've been to Dortmund and Hamburg and stood. At dortmund it's old school terracing. Without the fences hilsborough would not have happened. And safe standing is even another step further in safety. Let's be sensible and try to enjoy football again or our game will unfortunately disappear from what it should be.

 

[zzr45]

The problem is that controlled standing could be as safe as houses - it's the images that standing at football matches conjures up in people's minds that are the problem. For most reintroduced standing would start the clock on Hillsborough mkII despite any 'safety' consideration.

 

[Dymak]

Apologies, but..

Safe standing doesn't necessarily mean 'crammed' in.

Shove 10,000 spectators into 5,000 seats and I'm sure you'll agree that seating isn't necessarily safe.

I have an idea. Let's empty all stadiums and encourage everyone to watch the match on telly. Apparently driving is very hazardous. But only after we've attended a health and safety course on the dangers of electricity and tripping over the TV remote control, etc.

So yet again, we have somebody else who is also agreeing with my badly informed nonsense, I sense a pattern emerging here. I wholeheartedly agree that increasing capacity by 100%, from 5k to 10k would have dangers, even with allocated seating, or 'rail seating'. This has always been my fundamental concern on this topic.

Your last paragraph is a Straw Man. The truth is that English football has progressed and improved beyond all recognition since all seater stadiums were introduced, and that people have been standing infront of their seats for years with little problems to speak of. The desire to change the safe and successful arrangements that have been in place for 25 years is far from being universally popular, and there quite simply is not enough support to push it through, and therefore it won't be happening.

 

[WycombeToffee]

I stand on the terrace at Wycombe every week, and although it isn't overly busy, I have watched some games there with full sell-out crowds. I have never felt unsafe on the terrace. However, contrast that to the Spurs game last week, and it felt very unsafe when we scored our goals. The surge in the crowd took my brother forward about 7/8 rows (We were next to the aisle) and there was a serious danger of going over the seats in front. Lots of people did actually, because the seats in front were very low. To me, terracing seems generally safer than that.

 

[The Cowboy]

I stand on the terrace at Wycombe every week, and although it isn't overly busy, I have watched some games there with full sell-out crowds. I have never felt unsafe on the terrace. However, contrast that to the Spurs game last week, and it felt very unsafe when we scored our goals. The surge in the crowd took my brother forward about 7/8 rows (We were next to the aisle) and there was a serious danger of going over the seats in front. Lots of people did actually, because the seats in front were very low. To me, terracing seems generally safer than that.

You talking about a surge in a seating section? How would that happen?

Just looking at Wycombe's terrace, it's only about 8m from front to back, not too much danger there.

 

[Mountfield1985]

Thanks for agreeing with me that allocated seating, whether 'rail seating' or otherwise, would have most likely prevented the disaster. However your belief that safe standing is indeed safe is not shared by everyone. There will be significant sections of the Evertonian support who would disagree with you, especially if it results in increasing capacity in already busy areas. There are significant sections of Merseyside who disagree with you, not least some of the families I would imagine, and the government doesn't agree with you, and it doesn't look like its going to be implemented any time soon.

So you would agree that it would be safe, if they use a 1:1 ratio and capacity is not increased?

It feels like you're using Hillsbrough to avoid engaging in a debate about the idea. "It's not safe and that's that". I am sorry, but I see absolutely no way that modern safe-standing can recreate the conditions that led to Hillsbrough. There will not be thousands of people directed into one small pen. The rails between each row eliminate the chance of a large surge of people. There will not be metal fences caging the crowd in like cattle. There were regular incidents on terraces in the 70's and 80's, can anyone find me any at all from safe-standing on the continent?

The only safety issue for me would be overcrowding outside old fashioned crowds with narrow streets like Goodison or Anfield. Which is why I'd personally only support it at our ground if they used a 1:1 ratio.

 

[Dymak]

So you would agree that it would be safe, if they use a 1:1 ratio and capacity is not increased?

It feels like you're using Hillsbrough to avoid engaging in a debate about the idea. "It's not safe and that's that". I am sorry, but I see absolutely no way that modern safe-standing can recreate the conditions that led to Hillsbrough. There will not be thousands of people directed into one small pen. The rails between each row eliminate the chance of a large surge of people. There will not be metal fences caging the crowd in like cattle. There were regular incidents on terraces in the 70's and 80's, can anyone find me any at all from safe-standing on the continent?

The only safety issue for me would be overcrowding outside old fashioned crowds with narrow streets like Goodison or Anfield. Which is why I'd personally only support it at our ground if they used a 1:1 ratio.

I've said that I have no problem with 1:1 seat to person ratios. I've even said this would have prevented the Hillsborough disaster, but this is ill informed nonsense apparently. Ill informed nonsense that you are agreeing with.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Have there been any issues at all with rail seating in Germany?

The fact I can't think of any suggests that rail seating is evidentially no less safe than all seater stadiums at the very least

Have their been any issues with Celtic's rail seating?

Again, I can't think of any

There needs to be some test data of a team using this in England. One or two clubs need to be designated as the guinea pigs to try it out, and if there's no issues then I honestly can't see how there'd still be opposition at that point

 

[The Cowboy]

Have there been any issues at all with rail seating in Germany?

The fact I can't think of any suggests that rail seating is evidentially no less safe than all seater stadiums at the very least

Have their been any issues with Celtic's rail seating?

Again, I can't think of any

There needs to be some test data of a team using this in England. One or two clubs need to be designated as the guinea pigs to try it out, and if there's no issues then I honestly can't see how there'd still be opposition at that point

The FA are too scared of upsetting LFC / the Hillsborough family groups. It's as simple as that.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

The FA are too scared of upsetting LFC / the Hillsborough family groups. It's as simple as that.

Well they could always choose to exempt Liverpool at the beginning (And we'd also refuse it as a show of unity)

Villa and Man United both want it, let them trial it and if all goes well, which all the evidence suggests it will, go back to Hilsborough families at that point for further consultations

 

[Mountfield1985]

I've said that I have no problem with 1:1 seat to person ratios. I've even said this would have prevented the Hillsborough disaster, but this is ill informed nonsense apparently. Ill informed nonsense that you are agreeing with.

You're confusing me with another poster. I never said it was ill informed nonsense.

Glad you agree on 1:1 safe-standing, anyway.