Everton Youth Teams Thread

[Philw]

In truth Feeney is now 20 and will turn 21 next month. If he's not getting near to the first team squad now, he probably won't do. At 21 we should be in a position where we can take a decision on a player as to whether we believe he is first team level or not. If we are just at the point of testing them in the football league, I would suggest that is very telling.

I see a lot of people saying this, but I just can't agree/see it that way. I don't think that decision can be made until 23/4 with most players, especially those in defense/goal. Now if people said that he wasn't showing enough potential, or progress, to suggest he would be good enough for the first team in 2/3 years that would be a different matter.

The balancing act they have to do at this point I think is:
a) do they have enough first team potential to be worth hanging on to for another 2/3 years
b) is there a viable way to give them the requisite game time/training to develop them in that period
c) do they have more potential than someone coming through in the next group behind them

People say that these kids aren't or aren't going to be good enough, that they are bang average, but also moan about all the money we've spent on players like Keane, Walcott etc, and 'freebies' like Martina. If these first team players are so bad, then surely with the right development some of these youngsters could reach a similar level, and even if they're not ever gonna be full internationals or anything like that, at least our backup/bang average/fan targets won't have cost us 40 or 50 million!

 

[mightymoyes]

I see a lot of people saying this, but I just can't agree/see it that way. I don't think that decision can be made until 23/4 with most players, especially those in defense/goal. Now if people said that he wasn't showing enough potential, or progress, to suggest he would be good enough for the first team in 2/3 years that would be a different matter.

The balancing act they have to do at this point I think is:
a) do they have enough first team potential to be worth hanging on to for another 2/3 years
b) is there a viable way to give them the requisite game time/training to develop them in that period
c) do they have more potential than someone coming through in the next group behind them

People say that these kids aren't or aren't going to be good enough, that they are bang average, but also moan about all the money we've spent on players like Keane, Walcott etc, and 'freebies' like Martina. If these first team players are so bad, then surely with the right development some of these youngsters could reach a similar level, and even if they're not ever gonna be full internationals or anything like that, at least our backup/bang average/fan targets won't have cost us 40 or 50 million!

its not practical to hold on to players until they are 23 or 24 though just playing reserve football and loans. we've done that with pennington and hes no closer to being a PL player now than he was 3 or 4 yrs ago whereas we let duffy move on and he came back to the premier league eventually.
sell on and buy back clauses are an option to consider.

 

[catcherintherye]

I see a lot of people saying this, but I just can't agree/see it that way. I don't think that decision can be made until 23/4 with most players, especially those in defense/goal. Now if people said that he wasn't showing enough potential, or progress, to suggest he would be good enough for the first team in 2/3 years that would be a different matter.

The balancing act they have to do at this point I think is:
a) do they have enough first team potential to be worth hanging on to for another 2/3 years
b) is there a viable way to give them the requisite game time/training to develop them in that period
c) do they have more potential than someone coming through in the next group behind them

People say that these kids aren't or aren't going to be good enough, that they are bang average, but also moan about all the money we've spent on players like Keane, Walcott etc, and 'freebies' like Martina. If these first team players are so bad, then surely with the right development some of these youngsters could reach a similar level, and even if they're not ever gonna be full internationals or anything like that, at least our backup/bang average/fan targets won't have cost us 40 or 50 million!

I think it's fair to say that players generally improve until they are about 27/8 when they reach peak. I agree that physically you probably reach peak round 23/4. The issue is though, if you are not playing first team football you are not going to improve much. Technically, tactical and mental aspects of the game are going to leave you by. So you probably need to go and play games somewhere.

I know lots of people are fans of loans, but I think in general they are of limited use. They help a few people but not the majority. I think knowing you have the option to come back to a PL club holds people back. It's no surprise to me, that many of the current England team have don the "hard yards" at lower league from 18-22/3. You think of Pickford, Pope, Walker, Stones, Maguire, Alli, Mings etc they have all served an apprenticeship in lower league football, not been loaned out from a top teams academy.

Anyway I digress slightly. It does mean decisions have to be taken. If a player is not going to be getting games for us by a certain age, they will not be good enough. I agree that in Fennel's case he may finish his development, and maybe at 24 could play, but by that the level of improvement he can attain is just not great enough to cover for his complete lack of experience. It's kind of the Matthew Pennington situation all over again. He's 25 and played 7 senior games for Everton. Has a handful of starts at loads of clubs but not put down any serious roots. Hat 21, had he gone, and played 150+ league games at a league 1 side I bet he'd be better positioned (probably a bit like what Lundstram did).

So I think we have to be a bit more ruthless. If Feeney was released, it would be a starting point with it. I don't think we can keep repeating having lads like Pennington, Browning, Charlsey, Mcaleny, Garbutt etc on our books until their mid 20's. It doesn't feel right to me. There hints at a wider structural problem to me that we have so many examples of it.

I agree with Martina and have been quite open that the games he took would have been better given to Jon Joe Kenny. It's a slight aside though. We can avoid recruiting poor footballers and still be ruthless with younger players.

 

[catcherintherye]

its not practical to hold on to players until they are 23 or 24 though just playing reserve football and loans. we've done that with pennington and hes no closer to being a PL player now than he was 3 or 4 yrs ago whereas we let duffy move on and he came back to the premier league eventually.
sell on and buy back clauses are an option to consider.

They are often cluttering the under 23's and stopping other young players being given opportunities.

 

[Philw]

its not practical to hold on to players until they are 23 or 24 though just playing reserve football and loans. we've done that with pennington and hes no closer to being a PL player now than he was 3 or 4 yrs ago whereas we let duffy move on and he came back to the premier league eventually.
sell on and buy back clauses are an option to consider.

I think it's fair to say that players generally improve until they are about 27/8 when they reach peak. I agree that physically you probably reach peak round 23/4. The issue is though, if you are not playing first team football you are not going to improve much. Technically, tactical and mental aspects of the game are going to leave you by. So you probably need to go and play games somewhere.

I know lots of people are fans of loans, but I think in general they are of limited use. They help a few people but not the majority. I think knowing you have the option to come back to a PL club holds people back. It's no surprise to me, that many of the current England team have don the "hard yards" at lower league from 18-22/3. You think of Pickford, Pope, Walker, Stones, Maguire, Alli, Mings etc they have all served an apprenticeship in lower league football, not been loaned out from a top teams academy.

Anyway I digress slightly. It does mean decisions have to be taken. If a player is not going to be getting games for us by a certain age, they will not be good enough. I agree that in Fennel's case he may finish his development, and maybe at 24 could play, but by that the level of improvement he can attain is just not great enough to cover for his complete lack of experience. It's kind of the Matthew Pennington situation all over again. He's 25 and played 7 senior games for Everton. Has a handful of starts at loads of clubs but not put down any serious roots. Hat 21, had he gone, and played 150+ league games at a league 1 side I bet he'd be better positioned (probably a bit like what Lundstram did).

So I think we have to be a bit more ruthless. If Feeney was released, it would be a starting point with it. I don't think we can keep repeating having lads like Pennington, Browning, Charlsey, Mcaleny, Garbutt etc on our books until their mid 20's. It doesn't feel right to me. There hints at a wider structural problem to me that we have so many examples of it.

I agree with Martina and have been quite open that the games he took would have been better given to Jon Joe Kenny. It's a slight aside though. We can avoid recruiting poor footballers and still be ruthless with younger players.

They are often cluttering the under 23's and stopping other young players being given opportunities.

Yeah, that is the problem. I do agree that we have to be somewhat ruthless, but maybe the criteria needs realigning. 18 month loans seem to be all the rage atm, perhaps that is the key, or perhaps more buy back/first refusal clauses. Shame we don't have the same 'B' team setup they have in Spain, or a sister/farm club in a lower European league.

 

[catcherintherye]

Yeah, that is the problem. I do agree that we have to be somewhat ruthless, but maybe the criteria needs realigning. 18 month loans seem to be all the rage atm, perhaps that is the key, or perhaps more buy back/first refusal clauses. Shame we don't have the same 'B' team setup they have in Spain, or a sister/farm club in a lower European league.

The issue is, very few lower league teams are interested in such loans. But yes it's not an easy conundrum.

B teams would probably help, but rightly will never be permitted in England.

 

[Philw]

The issue is, very few lower league teams are interested in such loans. But yes it's not an easy conundrum.

B teams would probably help, but rightly will never be permitted in England.

Why do you say that? (Not sure if this is really the correct thread for it, although I guess it is related to Youth Teams)

 

[catcherintherye]

Why do you say that? (Not sure if this is really the correct thread for it, although I guess it is related to Youth Teams)

It feels wrong to me mate, big clubs taking up spots for their young teams that should be allocated to smaller clubs. The issue we have is that top clubs asset strip young players and then try to sell them off purely are a profit making exercise. They are then too greedy to let the players have a career if they aren't quite good enough for them. Thats the cause of many of the problems. A b team approach would only further encourage this problem not resolve it.

 

[Ring master]

It looks like the Man City u23s game v Everton u23s friday is live via there subscription service going by this https://www.mancity.com/news/club-n...an-city-launch-city-plus-subscription-service

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Its £2 a month but free for 30 days, IE sign up and cancel after game friday

Dont forget this-sign up,cancel for the game at 7pm

 

[toffeejack]

I see a lot of people saying this, but I just can't agree/see it that way. I don't think that decision can be made until 23/4 with most players, especially those in defense/goal. Now if people said that he wasn't showing enough potential, or progress, to suggest he would be good enough for the first team in 2/3 years that would be a different matter.

The balancing act they have to do at this point I think is:
a) do they have enough first team potential to be worth hanging on to for another 2/3 years
b) is there a viable way to give them the requisite game time/training to develop them in that period
c) do they have more potential than someone coming through in the next group behind them

People say that these kids aren't or aren't going to be good enough, that they are bang average, but also moan about all the money we've spent on players like Keane, Walcott etc, and 'freebies' like Martina. If these first team players are so bad, then surely with the right development some of these youngsters could reach a similar level, and even if they're not ever gonna be full internationals or anything like that, at least our backup/bang average/fan targets won't have cost us 40 or 50 million!

In most instances I'd agree, but right now we only have 3 centre backs, One of which was in the championship last season, and the other who is effing terrible. If no manager thinks they're good enough to get a game or two now, you'd think they have no chance.

 

[toffeejack]

It feels wrong to me mate, big clubs taking up spots for their young teams that should be allocated to smaller clubs. The issue we have is that top clubs asset strip young players and then try to sell them off purely are a profit making exercise. They are then too greedy to let the players have a career if they aren't quite good enough for them. Thats the cause of many of the problems. A b team approach would only further encourage this problem not resolve it.

Just look at what city are doing with that angelinho, wasn't good enough, sold him, could get him back for a bargain price, so they've bought him back for £5m with no intention of him getting in the first team, now they've loaned him out with a £30m option to buy to leipzig.

 

[blueloon]

evans has even said himself he didn't think unsworths defensive set up of the team suited him.
interesting summer ahead and hopefully we bring in a more attack minded coach/manager for the u23s

It starts tonight for Unsworth, he’s had January loans affect his sides before but he’s lost 3 of his most experienced players this time, plus 5 left/loaned out In August. Whether by design or forced upon him he’s got a Development squad on his hands with at least 5 from the u18s vying for a team/ squad place based upon recent squad selection. I don’t expect him to throw in many U18s in one go, but going forward I see this as a test of his capabilities of developing young players. I hope I’m not too disappointed.

 

[mightymoyes]

It starts tonight for Unsworth, he’s had January loans affect his sides before but he’s lost 3 of his most experienced players this time, plus 5 left/loaned out In August. Whether by design or forced upon him he’s got a Development squad on his hands with at least 5 from the u18s vying for a team/ squad place based upon recent squad selection. I don’t expect him to throw in many U18s in one go, but going forward I see this as a test of his capabilities of developing young players. I hope I’m not too disappointed.

Yeh a chance for astley at centreback I hope now feeney and Gibson have moved. His earlier rapid development seems to have stalled this season.

 

[Nymzee]

Yeh a chance for astley at centreback I hope now feeney and Gibson have moved. His earlier rapid development seems to have stalled this season.

I hope it's Astley and Branthwaite for the rest of the season in the U23's but I suspect it'll be Foulds and Con

 

[Ring master]

EVERTON U23S
Tyrer, John, Foulds, Astley, Ouzounidis, Branthwaite, Denny, Markelo, Quirk, Baningime (C), Adeniran.
Subs: Simms, Hansen, Mampala, Anderson, Dobbin.


MAN CITY U23S
Bazunu, Diounkou, McDonald, Ogbeta, Wilson-Esbrand, Doyle (C), Knight, Bernabe, Rogers, Nmecha, Braaf.
Subs: Robinson, Scott, Dele-Bashiru, Fiorini, Touaizi Zoubdi.