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Everton Youth Teams Thread

Explains why he has not been involved recently
It’s been ages though since he last played, the RS Derby where he was sent off and clearly not available for the Wigan game either so it seems to have taken some time to get his op. He has a raw, competitiveness about him that’s different from the likes of Cannon and Dobbin , wishing him well for a speedy recovery.
 
Slightly off topic but great to finally see kieran Dowell settle at Norwich, so much ability. Interesting to see how he does on the Premier league next season
No doubting dowell's abilities Norwich and there manager seem to be a good fit for him . interesting to see if a couple of Norwich players have improved since the last time there were in the prem. Like the look of Skipp but I think he is only on loan from spurs
 
No doubting dowell's abilities Norwich and there manager seem to be a good fit for him . interesting to see if a couple of Norwich players have improved since the last time there were in the prem. Like the look of Skipp but I think he is only on loan from spurs

Dowell our most talented youth product since Barkley for me, the constant change in managers didn't help his chances at all.
Yeh skipp only on loan, looks decent
 
Dowell our most talented youth product since Barkley for me, the constant change in managers didn't help his chances at all.
Yeh skipp only on loan, looks decent
I wouldn’t disagree about his talent he was a super youngster with us but for me there was always something lacking , - application? work rate? energy?. His time on loan at Forest was typical, some great goals, Man of match displays , but when things got tough his contributions seemed to drop. I think they changed their manager too and he never quite got back to the same level. I can see that in a bright Norwich team sweeping opponents aside in the Championship he will be in his element. The test will be if they end up in a relegation dog fight next season, has he changed enough to step up for the fight.?

Coincidently , I was thinking of Dowell the other day in terms of Gordon and Simms. Like Dowell they are talented youngsters , but lacking something extra at the moment to challenge for a first team place. The players ahead of them , apart from being more experienced contribute more , Richarlison ‘s work rate , tracking back etc far exceeds Gordon’s when he plays, and similarly DCL even when he’s not scoring is still contributing to the team, Simms is often anonymous for long periods. I’m hoping that both Gordon and Simms can come back improved in their work rate and contributions. This particularly for Gordon as he’s probably the closest we have at the moment to a young Kieran Dowell, a great potential talent who needs something extra to be a regular first teamer for us.
 

With Dowell I think there was number of factors, our loan choices certainly didn't help but he did seem very lax with his off ball work for movement and pressing. I don't think Dowell will be a premier league player unless the team he's with gets promoted (which Norwich certainly will) in a Lundstrum kind of way, he's pretty much exclusively a number 10 which is quite a niche role nowadays and I'm not sure he has the ability for a premier league team to buy him to fill that role. I remember England tried him out on the right and also deeper and it never really happened for him in either of those positions which is a shame. Though the club as far as I'm aware had never really tried him there so maybe he was set up to fail.

I do think the club and the player would both have been better off keeping him around and giving him a fair few games after the forest loan but that's also with the benefit of hindsight I suppose even if I thought he was massively underused at the time.
 
You will find out how good or otherwise Dowell is next season.
My money's on him being very average .

possibly right, i dont expect him to tear it up but if we could produce average premier league players regularly it would be better than average league 1 players.
 
With Dowell I think there was number of factors, our loan choices certainly didn't help but he did seem very lax with his off ball work for movement and pressing. I don't think Dowell will be a premier league player unless the team he's with gets promoted (which Norwich certainly will) in a Lundstrum kind of way, he's pretty much exclusively a number 10 which is quite a niche role nowadays and I'm not sure he has the ability for a premier league team to buy him to fill that role. I remember England tried him out on the right and also deeper and it never really happened for him in either of those positions which is a shame. Though the club as far as I'm aware had never really tried him there so maybe he was set up to fail.

I do think the club and the player would both have been better off keeping him around and giving him a fair few games after the forest loan but that's also with the benefit of hindsight I suppose even if I thought he was massively underused at the time.
I usually think where a player is wanted on loan or where they move next is a good indicator of whether they should be under consideration for more game time with us. Dowell was very much a known quantity in football, and yet no PL team moved for him. Even Sheffield United, where he'd been on loan, didn't want to make the move permanent when they came up. On that basis you'd have to assume he just wasn't ready to be a PL player. That might change over time, but there's nothing at all in Dowell's career so far to suggest he should have been part of the first team here 3 years ago.

Gordon is a similar story at the moment. There was a lot of talk early in the season that we weren't using him enough, but when he played for us he didn't ever really make it look like he should be getting more games. He's now gone to an average Championship side and is struggling to make an impact there. Again, that doesn't mean he won't kick on in future, but it does strongly suggest that the decision not to give him more minutes here was justified.
 

I usually think where a player is wanted on loan or where they move next is a good indicator of whether they should be under consideration for more game time with us. Dowell was very much a known quantity in football, and yet no PL team moved for him. Even Sheffield United, where he'd been on loan, didn't want to make the move permanent when they came up. On that basis you'd have to assume he just wasn't ready to be a PL player. That might change over time, but there's nothing at all in Dowell's career so far to suggest he should have been part of the first team here 3 years ago.

Gordon is a similar story at the moment. There was a lot of talk early in the season that we weren't using him enough, but when he played for us he didn't ever really make it look like he should be getting more games. He's now gone to an average Championship side and is struggling to make an impact there. Again, that doesn't mean he won't kick on in future, but it does strongly suggest that the decision not to give him more minutes here was justified.

we are so bad creativity wise when James doesnt play i still think Gordon could've offered us something this season.
 
we are so bad creativity wise when James doesnt play i still think Gordon could've offered us something this season.
As always with young players (or any player to be fair) there's a possibility he could have been useful at times, but that's a bit different to 'deserving' a chance if you know what I mean. It's possible he might have got a couple of goals or assists if he'd played (although his record in senior football so far doesn't really support that hypothesis) in the same way Besic might have been better to have on the bench on monday than the players we did. Ultimately, it doesn't actually make either of them good enough.
 
I usually think where a player is wanted on loan or where they move next is a good indicator of whether they should be under consideration for more game time with us. Dowell was very much a known quantity in football, and yet no PL team moved for him. Even Sheffield United, where he'd been on loan, didn't want to make the move permanent when they came up. On that basis you'd have to assume he just wasn't ready to be a PL player. That might change over time, but there's nothing at all in Dowell's career so far to suggest he should have been part of the first team here 3 years ago.

Gordon is a similar story at the moment. There was a lot of talk early in the season that we weren't using him enough, but when he played for us he didn't ever really make it look like he should be getting more games. He's now gone to an average Championship side and is struggling to make an impact there. Again, that doesn't mean he won't kick on in future, but it does strongly suggest that the decision not to give him more minutes here was justified.
I'd argue that loans for youngsters between premier league teams are extremely rare for the reason that they'd only use them as squad players if at all. No PL team sniff around any young players except for the outstanding ones. In fact, trying to think of kids <21 in the prem on loan this season I Co only think of Ampadu that's getting any sort of minutes. I'm not sure Davies or Calvert Lewin would've had any takers in the prem for a loan 3 years ago either. I'm not saying Dowell shouldve been playing every game or he would be a premier league player by now but I think he warranted more of a chance to see what he was like. You don't know whether a player is ready unless you see them in an actual game in our specific environment, Sheff U don't play a 10 in Wilders system which made him just a useful player in a promotion push, he didn't fit so was never going to get signed. That's also problem for Dowell as well but I'm not sure it's that great an indicator.

Gordon is a very similar story in he's regressing quite badly, struggling for minutes and not producing much when he does play. With that said he's also having to play firstly under a manager struggling for results and then with a change of manager, hardly an ideal development setting. And I still would rather Gordon in and around our first team squad as he adds something different, when you look at our bench Monday night I'm not sure it's disputable he would be on it if he was here. I'm not saying Gordon is even Premier league quality but that's not important really given the situation we are in with 0 creativity, pace or any sort of dynamism. Gordon at least offers that
 
I'd argue that loans for youngsters between premier league teams are extremely rare for the reason that they'd only use them as squad players if at all. No PL team sniff around any young players except for the outstanding ones. In fact, trying to think of kids <21 in the prem on loan this season I Co only think of Ampadu that's getting any sort of minutes. I'm not sure Davies or Calvert Lewin would've had any takers in the prem for a loan 3 years ago either. I'm not saying Dowell shouldve been playing every game or he would be a premier league player by now but I think he warranted more of a chance to see what he was like. You don't know whether a player is ready unless you see them in an actual game in our specific environment, Sheff U don't play a 10 in Wilders system which made him just a useful player in a promotion push, he didn't fit so was never going to get signed. That's also problem for Dowell as well but I'm not sure it's that great an indicator.

Gordon is a very similar story in he's regressing quite badly, struggling for minutes and not producing much when he does play. With that said he's also having to play firstly under a manager struggling for results and then with a change of manager, hardly an ideal development setting. And I still would rather Gordon in and around our first team squad as he adds something different, when you look at our bench Monday night I'm not sure it's disputable he would be on it if he was here. I'm not saying Gordon is even Premier league quality but that's not important really given the situation we are in with 0 creativity, pace or any sort of dynamism. Gordon at least offers that
I wasn't talking just about loans. I'm saying Dowell left here at about 22 as a well known player with loads of under 21 caps and championship games under his belt. He was available for a pittance, and yet not one PL club made a move for him. That isn't indisputable proof that he wasn't considered a PL player, but it's pretty strong circumstantial evidence.

The Gordon situation at Preston is just football isn't it. Or life even. The circumstances aren't always perfect, you just have to do your best and get through it. There's always something that people moan about when our players are on loan, it's never just that they aren't as good as people thought they were.
 
I wasn't talking just about loans. I'm saying Dowell left here at about 22 as a well known player with loads of under 21 caps and championship games under his belt. He was available for a pittance, and yet not one PL club made a move for him. That isn't indisputable proof that he wasn't considered a PL player, but it's pretty strong circumstantial evidence.

The Gordon situation at Preston is just football isn't it. Or life even. The circumstances aren't always perfect, you just have to do your best and get through it. There's always something that people moan about when our players are on loan, it's never just that they aren't as good as people thought they were.
I'm not saying he wasn't considered a premier league player because by 19-20 that ship had sailed on him moving to another premier league club. But the best of the rest were the ones that snapped him up so its not like he was a million miles away and moved to Carlisle or someone. He joined the 21st best team in the country when by your metric if he joined the 20th he would've been seen as a premier league player?

I'm not exactly sure what your point is with Gordon, that we should be sending our youngsters out to struggling teams just because that's football? Moise Kean was godawful for us and yet good for PSG and Juventus. Do we take from that, that he's a dreadful or excellent player based off what we've seen or perhaps apply a bit of context that players performance and form will inevitably vary based on the background and environment they are in. Barkley had 2 bad loans, came back and he was one of our most important first teamers.

Gordon might not be good enough long term or even now, but we're also fielding a squad with Iwobi, Bernard, King, Sigurdsson, Broadhead and Gomes in it so that point just flies out the window really
 

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