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Everton Youth Teams Thread

…high risk, it could actually send him backwards.
I don't get your total objection to any loan whatsoever Eggs. I agree that they don't often work out well, but it doesn't automatically follow that they then would have been better off staying at the parent club. Sometimes you just have to face up to the fact that many of these players are simply not good enough to develop into players capable of holding their own in the most competitive league in world football.

In an ideal world we would develop our own players, and there are so many factors to take into account for a manager to decide to do this. Such as where the player is in his development, in his physicality, and in competition for places within the first team squad in his position. But once the manager makes that decision, he then has to play him, even if it's only regular cameo's from the bench. If you don't, then the player would probably have been better off going on loan.

I would say it's only the very best young players that would fit into that category, and you would normally have identified those players by the time they were 18/19. Most of our academy players wouldn't fit into that category I would guess. However they may still be assessed as having nothing more to learn playing in youth football, so the next best option with these players is to find them a suitable loan. With the emphasis on suitable. That is, going to a league at the right standard for him at that stage in his development, and to a club that is likely to play him fairly regularly and play a system he would easily slot into. Sometimes, the loan itself may not have been considered a success, but the players have still developed and come back mentally stronger and with a better attitude. Such as Gordon last season.

Personally, I feel that Everton, as a club, don't have a great record at developing players to Premier standard in recent years. Since Martinez left, we haven't had a manager who has been prepared to put enough trust in youth, and many of the loans we have arranged have not been right for the player. But that isn't the system at fault, it is bad decision making by people at the club. There has also been a lot of bad luck with players having injuries soon after going out on loan.

Anyway, bottom line for me is that, if a player is considered good enough by the manager and there is a commitment on his part to give him ample game time, then we should try and develop the player ourselves. If that's not the case, then we should loan the players out. The last thing we should do is keep the player here playing youth football so we can win trophies, as has arguably been the case over the last 5 years or so.

As a final point,Eggs, in any one season we would probably have upto 8/9 players who have outgrown the youth system, but who we consider still have the"potential" to develop into Premier players. With the best will in the world, we would only be able to drip feed perhaps 2/3 of these into the first team squad. What would you suggest we do with the rest Eggs?
 
I don't get your total objection to any loan whatsoever Eggs. I agree that they don't often work out well, but it doesn't automatically follow that they then would have been better off staying at the parent club. Sometimes you just have to face up to the fact that many of these players are simply not good enough to develop into players capable of holding their own in the most competitive league in world football.

In an ideal world we would develop our own players, and there are so many factors to take into account for a manager to decide to do this. Such as where the player is in his development, in his physicality, and in competition for places within the first team squad in his position. But once the manager makes that decision, he then has to play him, even if it's only regular cameo's from the bench. If you don't, then the player would probably have been better off going on loan.

I would say it's only the very best young players that would fit into that category, and you would normally have identified those players by the time they were 18/19. Most of our academy players wouldn't fit into that category I would guess. However they may still be assessed as having nothing more to learn playing in youth football, so the next best option with these players is to find them a suitable loan. With the emphasis on suitable. That is, going to a league at the right standard for him at that stage in his development, and to a club that is likely to play him fairly regularly and play a system he would easily slot into. Sometimes, the loan itself may not have been considered a success, but the players have still developed and come back mentally stronger and with a better attitude. Such as Gordon last season.

Personally, I feel that Everton, as a club, don't have a great record at developing players to Premier standard in recent years. Since Martinez left, we haven't had a manager who has been prepared to put enough trust in youth, and many of the loans we have arranged have not been right for the player. But that isn't the system at fault, it is bad decision making by people at the club. There has also been a lot of bad luck with players having injuries soon after going out on loan.

Anyway, bottom line for me is that, if a player is considered good enough by the manager and there is a commitment on his part to give him ample game time, then we should try and develop the player ourselves. If that's not the case, then we should loan the players out. The last thing we should do is keep the player here playing youth football so we can win trophies, as has arguably been the case over the last 5 years or so.

As a final point,Eggs, in any one season we would probably have upto 8/9 players who have outgrown the youth system, but who we consider still have the"potential" to develop into Premier players. With the best will in the world, we would only be able to drip feed perhaps 2/3 of these into the first team squad. What would you suggest we do with the rest Eggs?

…I don’t ‘totally object’, Fred. I just think some posters feel it’s a straightforward step in a youngsters development, when it’s rarely the case at a club like ours.

it’s different with clubs like Chelsea who have a conveyor belt of talent getting to the latter stages of Youth Cup each season and then find it difficult to break into a top team. We don’t have those levels of young talent and we don’t have a top first team squad. Our most ppromising youngsters might be better served staying here.
 
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…I don’t ‘totally object’, Fred. I just think some posters feel it’s a straightforward step in a youngsters development at a club like ours, when it’s not the case more often than not.

it’s different with clubs like Chelsea who have a conveyor belt of talent getting to the latter stages of Youth Cup each season and then find it difficult to break into a top team. We don’t have those levels of young talent and we don’t have a top first team squad. Our most potential youngsters might be better served staying here.
I agree with that Eggs. But only when we have a manager who is prepared to put trust in them, and that's a problem we've had at Everton. Hopefully Frank is that person.

But you seem to object to every player who is sent out on loan. As I said, there's only so many we can accommodate each season. I'd like to see us keep hold of Mills, Warrington and Dobbin this season and try and give them game time from the bench. With 5 subs that may help.
 
I agree with that Eggs. But only when we have a manager who is prepared to put trust in them, and that's a problem we've had at Everton. Hopefully Frank is that person.

But you seem to object to every player who is sent out on loan. As I said, there's only so many we can accommodate each season. I'd like to see us keep hold of Mills, Warrington and Dobbin this season and try and give them game time from the bench. With 5 subs that may help.

Id rather, specifically Mills, Warrington and Dobbin where on the bench with this new subs rule to give them game time and develop with the squad. I know mens football is different, but Mills seems to have kicked on again, Warrington I imagine might get a bit of game time - Dobbin is the one I would like to see more time and I think he will end up on loan.

Loans are so hard to get right, club wise and everything else - youngsters need to get and take their chance, think Lampard might give them that.

Rather that then 2 GK on the bench, which is ludicrous.
 
My main objection with finding a loan for Mills this season is it could be slightly tricky given he hasn't really got a label at the moment. Plays right wing for the 21s, wing back for the senior team in pre season, has played rm for the 18s in the past and maybe could play right back in the future. So you're looking for a team to take a flyer on him and choose what he is for themselves basically, if we still havent decided by Jan. Staying till Jan will do him no harm
 

Id rather, specifically Mills, Warrington and Dobbin where on the bench with this new subs rule to give them game time and develop with the squad. I know mens football is different, but Mills seems to have kicked on again, Warrington I imagine might get a bit of game time - Dobbin is the one I would like to see more time and I think he will end up on loan.

Loans are so hard to get right, club wise and everything else - youngsters need to get and take their chance, think Lampard might give them that.

Rather that then 2 GK on the bench, which is ludicrous.
Yeah, I think especially with the subs rule the 25 man squad rule is actually quite limiting and you ideally want a handful of u21 players who can bring that closer to 30 if needed, we don’t have many so it makes sense to have Warrington, Mills, Welch and maybe Price around the squad rather than out on loan. Looking at our options in their positions they probably have a place on the depth chart.
 
My main objection with finding a loan for Mills this season is it could be slightly tricky given he hasn't really got a label at the moment. Plays right wing for the 21s, wing back for the senior team in pre season, has played rm for the 18s in the past and maybe could play right back in the future. So you're looking for a team to take a flyer on him and choose what he is for themselves basically, if we still havent decided by Jan. Staying till Jan will do him no harm

I feel it might benefit him that he still is quite versatile tbh, I imagine hell see a few minutes in a variety of positions.
 
I feel it might benefit him that he still is quite versatile tbh, I imagine hell see a few minutes in a variety of positions.
I agree, and it may give him more opportunities in our squad as well. There's just a risk we loan him out in Jan and he gets used as say a rb and we see him as a rw or vice versa. Not a big issue mind you.
Looks like Dobbin going to Derby
Great move for him. That team should be one of the best in the league unlike the other 2 lads we've sent on L1 loans. Should also work his way into that team ahead of any of their front 3 that started Saturday as well. Quite impressed by Thelwells loans
 

Id rather, specifically Mills, Warrington and Dobbin where on the bench with this new subs rule to give them game time and develop with the squad. I know mens football is different, but Mills seems to have kicked on again, Warrington I imagine might get a bit of game time - Dobbin is the one I would like to see more time and I think he will end up on loan.

Loans are so hard to get right, club wise and everything else - youngsters need to get and take their chance, think Lampard might give them that.

Rather that then 2 GK on the bench, which is ludicrous.

How many of these will actually make the bench?
Its all well and good saying we can now bring 5 subs on but how many of these lads will get on the bench?
Lampard more than others has a history of giving young players a go, but as of yet, he has only given young lads minutes when it means absolutely nothing!
We had about 7 players missing from that Palace game last season and only Reece Welch got on the bench! And if anything happened to a defender, we had Kenny & Godfrey to bring on!
At right back Mills will have Patterson, Coleman, Holgate, Godfrey & even Iwobi selected ahead of him
At wing back Mills will have Patterson, Iwobi, Vinagre & possibly Gordon selected ahead of him
On the wing Mills will have Gordon, Gray, Iwobi, McNeal, Townsend (when fit) & possibly even Alli ahead of him

Managers are so much more likely to go with a square peg to fill a position if injuries occur, rather than an 18 year old with 0 experience.
This is before we factor in any sort of new signings

Dobbin made the bench 8 times last season
Reece Welch got on the bench 6 times last season
Issac Price got on the bench 5 times last season
Stan Mills didn't make the bench at all last season


Over a 38 game season 342 available spots on the bench, only 19 were available for these 4 lads!
These 4 lads accumulated 41 minutes of professional football last season
Lewis Warrington got 1,460 minutes of men's professional football last season

Who do you think has progressed the most over that time?
 
How many of these will actually make the bench?
Its all well and good saying we can now bring 5 subs on but how many of these lads will get on the bench?
Lampard more than others has a history of giving young players a go, but as of yet, he has only given young lads minutes when it means absolutely nothing!
We had about 7 players missing from that Palace game last season and only Reece Welch got on the bench! And if anything happened to a defender, we had Kenny & Godfrey to bring on!
At right back Mills will have Patterson, Coleman, Holgate, Godfrey & even Iwobi selected ahead of him
At wing back Mills will have Patterson, Iwobi, Vinagre & possibly Gordon selected ahead of him
On the wing Mills will have Gordon, Gray, Iwobi, McNeal, Townsend (when fit) & possibly even Alli ahead of him

Managers are so much more likely to go with a square peg to fill a position if injuries occur, rather than an 18 year old with 0 experience.
This is before we factor in any sort of new signings

Dobbin made the bench 8 times last season
Reece Welch got on the bench 6 times last season
Issac Price got on the bench 5 times last season
Stan Mills didn't make the bench at all last season


Over a 38 game season 342 available spots on the bench, only 19 were available for these 4 lads!
These 4 lads accumulated 41 minutes of professional football last season
Lewis Warrington got 1,460 minutes of men's professional football last season

Who do you think has progressed the most over that time?

I dont doubt that playing football progresses players more then being part of the team, and am definitely not here arguing against players given a loan. I think if the loan is right then it should be made.

There could be an argument that Mills has progressed massively over the last 18 months, I guess besides those who watch the youth teams regularly most wouldn't have heard of him but he's had a pretty good trajectory for that time for me.

I agree most managers might go for experienced players and square pegs in round holes, but I think (admittedly hope) that Lampard would give the younger players a chance with the additional subs, I know it doesn't always work like that. I am also not suggesting all these players will make it, but its an opportunity for some players to get first team minutes.

Its each persons preference, but we dont have a deep squad full of talent, we have younger players who might or might not make it who are hungrier (mills, warrington etc) and then older players who have seemingly no interest in playing for the club. I would rather these guys get on the bench then naming 2 subs and players who have no want to play for us besides their fat cheque.
 

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