Financial Fair Play investigation

[davek]

Agree with all this. The rules are literally about sustainability so a punishment such as a massive fine or a points deduction that’s tantamount to relegation, that would *itself* turn a struggling but sustainable one into potentially an unsustainable one would surely be heavy handed and contradictory.

Seems to me that the really suitable punishment where a club has self inflicted financial trouble is formal transfer and spending restrictions. The rules are surely meant to prevent financial problems not make them far worse.

Agreed.

Running through the possible punishment scenarios in the Toffeeweb podcast the Esk made the point that it'd make little sense to transfer embargo the club because the club has been pretty much embargoing itself of late in conjunction with the PL. But I think even less sensible is handing EFC an almost impossible task of avoiding relegation in 2023/24 by handing a points deduction in line with what's happened in the Championship (say 9 points or even 10).

For a club not able to get to 40 points in all likelood in the last 2 seasons to set a 48-50 point target next season is preposterous. That improvement, given that we'll be selling again and requiring PL permission to buy players with what some of the cash we get back in, isn't going to happen. They'll know that. So if they choose to avoid relegating Everton (a non-sterter as an option) then they have to also reason that a sizeable ppoints deduction cant be the punishment they hand down.

Do they want a top flight institution like Everton with a brand new state of the art stadium in the PL to add even more prestige to that competition, to continue as part of their league, or do they want our club's future threatened and our stadium plans in doubt (or built and shown off in another league)? All the while nodding through the investment of the Saudis at Newcastle unproblematically?

We need to get safe in the cming weeks and leave the PL and their commission a massive headache.

 

[Neiler]

Agreed.

Running through the possible punishment scenarios in the Toffeeweb podcast the Esk made the point that it'd make little sense to transfer embargo the club because the club has been pretty much embargoing itself of late in conjunction with the PL. But I think even less sensible is handing EFC an almost impossible task of avoiding relegation in 2023/24 by handing a points deduction in line with what's happened in the Championship (say 9 points or even 10).

For a club not able to get to 40 points in all likelood in the last 2 seasons to set a 48-50 point target next season is preposterous. That improvement, given that we'll be selling again and requiring PL permission to buy players with what some of the cash we get back in, isn't going to happen. They'll know that. So if they choose to avoid relegating Everton (a non-sterter as an option) then they have to also reason that a sizeable ppoints deduction cant be the punishment they hand down.

Do they want a top flight institution like Everton with a brand new state of the art stadium in the PL to add even more prestige to that competition, to continue as part of their league, or do they want our club's future threatened and our stadium plans in doubt (or built and shown off in another league)? All the while nodding through the investment of the Saudis at Newcastle unproblematically?

We need to get safe in the cming weeks and leave the PL and their commission a massive headache.

Need to be found guilty first mate!

 

[davek]

That would be as good as relegating us. Squad is honking; would be a year older, some, I'd imagine, will be sold/released. And everyone else will have strengthened. We are treading water above the relegation zone as is.

Nah. The squad has players like Garner and Patterson hardly used since arriving here. Thos two can slot into CM and wide right. We can call back Branthwaite and Cannon. And Simms could prove in the rest of the season that he's up to getting us a solid return of goals. Price and Mills could also make their pitch on the periphery of the first team.

Most importantly we'd have Dyche with a summer pre-season training to get us up to where he wants our fitness levels to be and work on ball retention to go with what he's achieved already.

A transfer embargo would hit us but not by much.

 

[Tony’s Carp]

Can I ask then, what is your take on the Football League and their deductions plus Business Plans for breaches?

Business Plans I guess can restore to a position of financial sanity but...

On the fine front they wanted to impose a £50m one on QPR in 2014 following promotion as get they tried to write off losses through a debt waiver. That was under their old fining system..

Their embargoes also seem to have no upper time limit, just until compliant again or until dispute settled. Think Blackburn or Nottingham Forest had restrictions- not ban but restrictions- for 18 months, ie what they could do and what they couldn't do.

Everton had they run up major losses in the Championship rather than the Premier League, then I expect would have been in serious bother.

Tbh I’m not an expert in each individual case in the EFL. Some of the points deductions seem to have been quite heavy handed but I don’t know every detail- if there’s been a deliberate pattern of deceitful / fraudulent behaviour then obviously heavy sanctions are appropriate, as they will be if proven with us or City. We’ll see if that’s the case with us.

Business plans / financial restrictions are a reasonable solution. Obviously a club that’s been overspending shouldn’t be allowed to just keep doing so prevent them from doing so.

Bearing in mind that in football or any business bad financial management is already self punishing in the end, as we’ve seen with our struggles. Without knowing the details of the charge we don’t know what is appropriate but when the rules are about sustainability the punishment shouldn’t itself make clubs unsustainable.

 

[davek]

Need to be found guilty first mate!

Spot on, yeah. I doubt this lot would call it though if they weren't getting what they want from pretty much a panel made up of their own judicial panel. Its loaded. Just how much they want to punish us is the only question.


The fact they've worked with us over two seasons should mitigate against the very worst outcome. How could it not?

 

[neil999]

Roman Abramovich secretly bankrolled Dutch football club, leaked documents suggest

Exclusive: Files reveal €117m in loans for Vitesse Arnhem originated with then owner of Chelsea, despite repeated denials

www.theguardian.com

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Until Everton accounts out for last season there is some guesswork. It won't be in spreadsheet form but...

2017-18. Pre tax loss £13.07m Less £3,172,206 Community Expenditure Less £11,405,000 Stadium Project Less £3,968,000 Depreciation Less Amortisation of Grants £38,000 Less £500,000 to £1,000,000 Women's team?

Academy is an interesting bit of the jigsaw.

Will let others use the template to try and extrapolate. Remember 2019-20 and 2020-21 are aggregated and halved, averaged.

 

[Dixieslaces]

Can’t help but suspect the El Ghazi/Digne deal was a bit suss.

And Alli one

 

[davek]

A transfer ban wouldnt do us as much harm as points deducted, even now we would be close to safe if Sean had the game Frank blew, even if it was 9 points, a full season of Dyche would see us 9 points better off anyway

Maybe. I think the points gap to make up would be a tall order though.

The psychological impact of having to get 9 points before your season begins would be enormous.

 

[Dymak]

It ultimately depends whether the Premier League want to bury us or give us a fighting chance.

A point deduction of 4 points or more and Burnley will sue for probably the difference between parachute payments and premier league money.

If they follow the same approach as Birmingham City and go for 9, there is a very good chance that would relegate us next season. When you then combine that with the claim Burnley would have, you are genuinely looking at administration. If Burnley end up having a claim and we are no longer a Premier League club (I.e. we are relegated this season) how do we afford that? Would be difficult to find the cash even if we stay up.

Ultimately my biggest gripe with the rules is “what is the purpose of them?” If the worst case scenario were to happen, they would be effectively destroying a premier league football club. That doesn’t exactly sounds great for “sustainability”.

And whilst we have previously made massive massive mistakes, the type others could look at and say “we ain’t doing that”, quite a few have noted that we are slowly turning it around. I think we are getting to the stage of possibly making a small profit (for this financial year) and when you factor the increase in revenue with the new stadium, there’s possibly a bright future.

The club isn’t in administration, it’s paying wages and honouring commitments it has made to creditors. So it’s a functioning business. And whilst it’s previously made mistakes, you could say it’s learned its lesson and is on a different path. But if the Premier League properly leathers us, all that is gone. That’s the bit I don’t get. A rule to protect clubs which through its very implementation could end up killing a club

Good post, but I don't think Burnley have any chance of winning a lawsuit and therefore they won't ever commence one. Everton were not in breach of any regulations at the time of their complaint to the league. The PL amended the rules due to Covid, as they are allowed to do, and the changes to the rules allowed Everton to remain compliant. Burnley don't have any grounds for a lawsuit, imo.

 

[Neiler]

Spot on, yeah. I doubt this lot would call it though if they weren't getting what they want from pretty much a panel made up of their own judicial panel. Its loaded. Just how much they want to punish us is the only question.


The fact they've worked with us over two seasons should mitigate against the very worst outcome. How could it not?

Its very hard to work out the dynamic here, my suspicion is the regulator thing and i suspect they are under heat from other clubs also - is to swift a change of tact - the level of punishment will be on the scale and scope of whats in the accounts - how disputable it is.

If the PL are being pressured into this i wonder are they asking us to take one for the team and in return will get a hand slapping. Other thing is the can of worms a stringent penalty opens up, im looking around the league seeing a lot of clubs - not without risk, future risk or questionable sins. Im thinking the scab 6, Villa, Leicester and Chelsea - im looking up North at Saudi Arabia and with sovereign wealth fund going to land at Utd - fingers can be pointed both ways and if we had any sense we should be privately rattling a few sabres.

 

[Dixieslaces]

Tbh I’m not an expert in each individual case in the EFL. Some of the points deductions seem to have been quite heavy handed but I don’t know every detail- if there’s been a deliberate pattern of deceitful / fraudulent behaviour then obviously heavy sanctions are appropriate, as they will be if proven with us or City. We’ll see if that’s the case with us.

Business plans / financial restrictions are a reasonable solution. Obviously a club that’s been overspending shouldn’t be allowed to just keep doing so prevent them from doing so.

Bearing in mind that in football or any business bad financial management is already self punishing in the end, as we’ve seen with our struggles. Without knowing the details of the charge we don’t know what is appropriate but when the rules are about sustainability the punishment shouldn’t itself make clubs unsustainable.

some fair points but can you honestly see them going after City?
What will also be interesting is the review of Newcastle Ownership, but once again i will be surprised if anything comes out of it.
It all seems top loaded in favour of the top 6 or 7 teams which possibly lends itself to a breakaway being formed like they tried and LIV ahs done with Golf

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Good post, but I don't think Burnley have any chance of winning a lawsuit and therefore they won't ever commence one. Everton were not in breach of any regulations at the time of their complaint to the league. The PL amended the rules due to Covid, as they are allowed to do, and the changes to the rules allowed Everton to remain compliant. Burnley don't have any grounds for a lawsuit, imo.

Are you certain on this because Middlesbrough and Wycombe actually did that very thing vs Derby.

Has to be heard by an Independent Panel so...PL rules may differ but I'm not so certain. Peterborough are also watching and waiting v Reading...

Surely it would depend on the precise nature of the FFP judgement if it goes against Everton.

In 2019 Gibson threatened initially Derby then latterly a £50m claim v the EFL so some kinda joint liability seems possible. His claim v the EFL was linked to failure to enforce.

 

[brieverton]

It's strongly in our favour that we have two seasons worth of belt-tightening and co-operation with the PL and also have the prospect of turning profit on this year's accounts.

In a quasi-legal proceeding, weight will be given to corrective actions and mitigating circumstances.

I'm strongly of the view that this has come about through politicking from other clubs and not the PL itself, insofar as you can separate one from the other. A complaint from a poster club is worth more than from Leeds or Burnley.

They have previously said we had no case to answer and the club has consolidated and improved its position since then.

That all adds up to a solid defence but we just have to wait.

 

[DanEFC92]

Nah. The squad has players like Garner and Patterson hardly used since arriving here. Thos two can slot into CM and wide right. We can call back Branthwaite and Cannon. And Simms could prove in the rest of the season that he's up to getting us a solid return of goals. Price and Mills could also make their pitch on the periphery of the first team.

Most importantly we'd have Dyche with a summer pre-season training to get us up to where he wants our fitness levels to be and work on ball retention to go with what he's achieved already.

A transfer embargo would hit us but not by much.

Some big assumptions made there.

That the youth players are up to it. That we won't have the same injury issues.

This squad is desperate for reinforcements. Almost all over the park.