Financial Fair Play investigation

[roy vernon]

I'd fancy us to make a go of staying up even if we got -12 points. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be rushing the bookies to take advantage of the big odds that would be on offer, but I'd fancy us to make a fight of it for 2 reasons:

1- I believe we are better than at least 3 teams.

2 - I believe it would give us something we've been missing for too long now; a united fan base. It would also be an angry Evertonian fan base. Nothing new I hear you say? Well, no, it's not, but it does seem like for far too long now, most of the anger from ourselves, has been directed at one and other. A united and hostile Goodison is a 'weapon' like no other in a relegation scrap.

I believe we are better than 3 teams as well John, but, I don't believe we are 12 points better than 3 teams. I would go as far as to say that we, if we are docked no points, we would have no chance whatsoever of avoiding relegation by 12 points. That is what you are saying. I believe that, if we are not docked points, we will probably stay up, but, even a 3 point deduction makes it difficult for us.

 

[Wat Tyler]

Some bookies have took relegation odds down, probably waiting to see the outcome of this.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Some of the tosh on here about conspiracies, agendas, being made an example of etc is proper tin foil hat stuff. The nonsense about protecting the big 6 etc is right up there with mainstream media and deep state nonsense.

We were one of the original gang that broke away to form the PL. Broke away. The PL wasn’t some cosy fireside chat amongst all 92 clubs. We led a breakaway that shafted the Football League and created the huge disparity in finances between PL and EFL. So let’s not pretend we’re not part of the problem and if we were still where we were in 1992, we’d have been looking at the Super League.

As for FFP, we’ve run up huge, eyewatering losses, been badly run, now living hand to mouth with loans to pay the bills. The idea that we’re being picked on or made an example is laughable. If we’ve broken the rules then we should face the punishment, accept it, apologise and start the work to rebuild our club and reputation.

I just want it done now. Even if we’re found not guilty, it’s probably on a technicality. In my mind we’ve not just broken P&S rules, we’ve blown them up but may yet still escape.

I just want to take any punishment, get the club sold, get through the next 18 months and move into the new stadium. Kenwright has gone (RIP), Morishi soon to follow, the huge spending era is over. Whatever happens with FFP will now hopefully draw a line under a disastrous period in our clubs history and we can get back to a better place.

And as for City and their 100+ changes….theres a lot of whataboutery. We don’t know the context of their breaches. The quantity of breaches is meaningless at this stage. It could be 117 minor technicalities whereas us could be 1 serious breach. It’s all just speculation.

Neither club passes the smell test. It all stinks. City have probably cheated better as they’ve managed to operate in a legally grey area with their funding and some very expensive lawyers will be arguing they’ve not technically broken any rules no matter how much it stinks.

Whole world of difference between creating a league where everyone in it have a good chance of competing. It was not a closed shop and every year 3 new clubs have that chance to come and try and put down roots.

Do 3 clubs get a chance to break into the top 7/8? P&S rules dictate you can spend what you earn and all the established top clubs (which is just a moment in history that these are what they are) already earn hundreds of millions more than everyone else. They are at the top of the league, so they get most prize money, TV payments, European football. It is almost impossible to catch now as to get better players you need more sponsorship, what gets you that? Fighting for titles which you can't get anywhere near.

You say there is no competitive conspiracy behind all of this but years back if Utd or the RS weren't in Europe they just weren't, now the money men are finding ways that even if a club like utd aren't there they still can be because of a coefficient that really means 1) we can make more money because they are in the competition and 2) they don't just create their own super league. Don't you think that happens at PL level too?

The constant bias of decisions and the rules put in place is ruining football as a competitive sport, it is now more like wrestling where the biggest names take top billing and the rest is to pad it out.

 

[John from Bootle]

I believe we are better than 3 teams as well John, but, I don't believe we are 12 points better than 3 teams. I would go as far as to say that we, if we are docked no points, we would have no chance whatsoever of avoiding relegation by 12 points. That is what you are saying. I believe that, if we are not docked points, we will probably stay up, but, even a 3 point deduction makes it difficult for us.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion mate. I'm under no illusion it would be difficult.

Just for the record though mate, as things stand, we would be 10 points off, with a 12 point deduction. it would take us to -5.

 

[roy vernon]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion mate. I'm under no illusion it would be difficult.

Just for the record though mate, as things stand, we would be 10 points off, with a 12 point deduction. it would take us to -5.

I'm not sure I understand mate, as things stand, we would be 10 points off what?

 

[Bluerover]

It would indeed be the HC here in the UK on a point of law

I am extremely sceptical re the whole 12 point issue but let’s assume for one second if it’s a fact then that will have been something the PL presented to the commission before their ruling that would mean it almost certainly wouldn’t be a breach of process.

The commission isn’t a court of law the PL have said as far as I can see nothing post the charge yes a lot has been published in the press as far as I can see there is an awful lot of speculation and finger pointing but there would have to be proof that that a commission acted outside the law.

People just need to draw breath on this there really isn’t anything of substance either way lets face it there isn’t anything other than guess work what the charge is about some suggest it’s about a tax credit ( I really doubt that ) I personally think it revolves simply around the £105 million allowable.

It’s worth noting that appealing a commission decision isn’t just something that is open to the accused the same requirements and restrictions apply to both sides. The ability to introduce new evidence is limited so in the main the appeal would be asking for fresh eyes to look at the evidence already submitted and the time to submit an appeal are limited to days not months

My final contribution to this particular issue - not the thread!

I have repeatedly said this is not a court, civil or criminal but a quasi- judicial process with formidable powers to investigate, determine and impose serious negative consequences on a respondent- in this case Everton FC., where a determination is that the respondent has breached the rules or in this case the FFP that is under investigation

"Nemo iudex in sua causa applies here to the EPL. They cannot be judges in their own cause. By giving this to a plenipotentiary Commission, one would think they had fulfilled this requirement, but if it is true that they have interfered by making recommendations as to punishment BEFORE conclusion and determination of the hearing, then Everton have a strong case for arguing undue influence/prejudice. Anyone know who is paying the members of the Commission btw?? I really don't know the answer to this. Are they truly independent of the EPL??

Whether the Contempt of Court Act 1981 also applies to these as "Other Proceedings" under the Act is unclear. but I believe it should certainly be examined by Everton's Counsel.

From an Irish solicitor's site - I believe the same would apply in England and Wales, as we share the same fundamental common law foundation. (The Scottish legal system is different, and I am unfamiliar with its intricacies, but I would be surprised if Natural Justice Rules were much different).

"Many quasi-judicial tribunals or bodies rely on the surety that those making decisions must always consider natural justice in decision-making and use fair procedures throughout.

Essentially, natural justice requires that a person receive a fair and unbiased hearing before a decision is made that will negatively affect them. This concept applies to a judicial and quasi judicial forum.

The main requirements of natural justice that must be met in every case are adequate notice and information to be provided, a fair hearing with a right to reply (as it is all so hush hush it is for Everton's legal team to say whether or not they think they got a fair hearing and that the rule 'audi alteram partem' was properly followed by the Commission- i.e must hear the other side), no bias by the decision makers and the right to appeal. It is paramount that these basic considerations are applied in all cases".

 

[Bluerover]

Some of the tosh on here about conspiracies, agendas, being made an example of etc is proper tin foil hat stuff. The nonsense about protecting the big 6 etc is right up there with mainstream media and deep state nonsense.

We were one of the original gang that broke away to form the PL. Broke away. The PL wasn’t some cosy fireside chat amongst all 92 clubs. We led a breakaway that shafted the Football League and created the huge disparity in finances between PL and EFL. So let’s not pretend we’re not part of the problem and if we were still where we were in 1992, we’d have been looking at the Super League.

As for FFP, we’ve run up huge, eyewatering losses, been badly run, now living hand to mouth with loans to pay the bills. The idea that we’re being picked on or made an example is laughable. If we’ve broken the rules then we should face the punishment, accept it, apologise and start the work to rebuild our club and reputation.

I just want it done now. Even if we’re found not guilty, it’s probably on a technicality. In my mind we’ve not just broken P&S rules, we’ve blown them up but may yet still escape.

I just want to take any punishment, get the club sold, get through the next 18 months and move into the new stadium. Kenwright has gone (RIP), Morishi soon to follow, the huge spending era is over. Whatever happens with FFP will now hopefully draw a line under a disastrous period in our clubs history and we can get back to a better place.

And as for City and their 100+ changes….theres a lot of whataboutery. We don’t know the context of their breaches. The quantity of breaches is meaningless at this stage. It could be 117 minor technicalities whereas us could be 1 serious breach. It’s all just speculation.

Neither club passes the smell test. It all stinks. City have probably cheated better as they’ve managed to operate in a legally grey area with their funding and some very expensive lawyers will be arguing they’ve not technically broken any rules no matter how much it stinks.

I smell the blood of a rs. Back to ynwa or Shankly gates now like a good little bluto.

 

[royalbalou]

I'm not sure I understand mate, as things stand, we would be 10 points off what?

He means we'd currently be 10 points off safety (Luton on 5 points)

 

[CheshireBlue]

I believe we are better than 3 teams as well John, but, I don't believe we are 12 points better than 3 teams. I would go as far as to say that we, if we are docked no points, we would have no chance whatsoever of avoiding relegation by 12 points. That is what you are saying. I believe that, if we are not docked points, we will probably stay up, but, even a 3 point deduction makes it difficult for us.

Yeah I think 'this season' 28 points keeps you safe, possibly even 27. As we've been averaging just above 1 ppg, we should be expecting at least 38 points, possibly 39 or 40 looking at those rival 3 or 4 teams. A 12 point reduction would be doable but extremely tight and no doubt very nerve wracking, anything less and we have a real chance.

 

[John from Bootle]

I'm not sure I understand mate, as things stand, we would be 10 points off what?

We would be 10 points behind Luton mate. As things stand, we would be on minus five points, Luton are on 5

 

[Bluerover]

pretty much the attitude on here that’s stopped me from creating an account before and posting. I don’t know why people have to get so defensive and snide.

Fwiw, I’ve not made a comparison. That’s you jumping in and making one up.

All I’ve said is if we were in the top 6 like we were in ‘92, we’d be up for the super league too. Just like the PL breakaway, it’s about more money for the top clubs. I’m not comparing the two leagues but given you seem to be, are you happy that the PL has been good for the league pyramid or given the dominance of 3 or 4 clubs since ‘92, that perhaps it’s been a disaster for the pyramid?

It’s all about greed and our FFP issue is part of it. It’s destroying the game and clubs.

Going back to lurking now.

 

[roy vernon]

We would be 10 points behind Luton mate. As things stand, we would be on minus five points, Luton are on 5

Ah got you. The thing is though, we are quarter of the way through the season, we have had a lot of, relatively, easy fixtures and we are on 7 points, that puts us on course for 28 points for the season. It seems unlikely that we can survive a 12 points deduction.

If you take into account how we have played this season, we will probably just about have enough to stay up, but only because there are 3 terrible teams in the division this year and we've already played 2 of them and gained the princely amount of 1 point from those 2 games. Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

[roy vernon]

Yeah I think 'this season' 28 points keeps you safe, possibly even 27. As we've been averaging just above 1 ppg, we should be expecting at least 38 points, possibly 39 or 40 looking at those rival 3 or 4 teams. A 12 point reduction would be doable but extremely tight and no doubt very nerve wracking, anything less and we have a real chance.

We've been averaging far less than a point per game, we are on 7 points from 9 games, which puts us on course for 28 points not 38.

 

[COYBL25]

My final contribution to this particular issue - not the thread!

I have repeatedly said this is not a court, civil or criminal but a quasi- judicial process with formidable powers to investigate, determine and impose serious negative consequences on a respondent- in this case Everton FC., where a determination is that the respondent has breached the rules or in this case the FFP that is under investigation

"Nemo iudex in sua causa applies here to the EPL. They cannot be judges in their own cause. By giving this to a plenipotentiary Commission, one would think they had fulfilled this requirement, but if it is true that they have interfered by making recommendations as to punishment BEFORE conclusion and determination of the hearing, then Everton have a strong case for arguing undue influence/prejudice. Anyone know who is paying the members of the Commission btw?? I really don't know the answer to this. Are they truly independent of the EPL??

Whether the Contempt of Court Act 1981 also applies to these as "Other Proceedings" under the Act is unclear. but I believe it should certainly be examined by Everton's Counsel.

From an Irish solicitor's site - I believe the same would apply in England and Wales, as we share the same fundamental common law foundation. (The Scottish legal system is different, and I am unfamiliar with its intricacies, but I would be surprised if Natural Justice Rules were much different).

"Many quasi-judicial tribunals or bodies rely on the surety that those making decisions must always consider natural justice in decision-making and use fair procedures throughout.

Essentially, natural justice requires that a person receive a fair and unbiased hearing before a decision is made that will negatively affect them. This concept applies to a judicial and quasi judicial forum.

The main requirements of natural justice that must be met in every case are adequate notice and information to be provided, a fair hearing with a right to reply (as it is all so hush hush it is for Everton's legal team to say whether or not they think they got a fair hearing and that the rule 'audi alteram partem' was properly followed by the Commission- i.e must hear the other side), no bias by the decision makers and the right to appeal. It is paramount that these basic considerations are applied in all cases".

You should know by now, that your law degree and associated qualifications mean nothing compared to what “ Tony “ from the bookies said.

 

[Marius57]

Yeah I think 'this season' 28 points keeps you safe, possibly even 27. As we've been averaging just above 1 ppg, we should be expecting at least 38 points, possibly 39 or 40 looking at those rival 3 or 4 teams. A 12 point reduction would be doable but extremely tight and no doubt very nerve wracking, anything less and we have a real chance.

We are on target for like 29/30 points mate, not 38. We have 7 from 9 games. Which is quite clearly under 1ppg