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gordon brown : your hopes

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Actually Gordon Brown inherited a rather good economy from the Major government. The housing market crashed in 1995 but by 1997 things were well on track again. Don't forget that Labour kept the same economic policies as the Tories for the first couple of years and used the surplus to reduce government debt.

I don't buy this idea that Gordon Brown is the messiah for 'delivering' a good economy. He's done a number of things well. Firstly he freed the bank of England to set interest rates independantly of political whims. Secondly he maintained a reasonably liberal economy devoid of the political protectionism seen in much of Europe. This second point is particularly poignant and I'll elaborate on it later.

Where I don't think Brown can take any credit however is the prosperous state of the global economy. Since Labour took over in 1997 there hasn't been a single major economy fall into recession. Add in the rapidly growing developing economies of China, India, Mexico, Brazil, Russia etc and globally the past decade has been very prosperous. To therefore take the praise for Britain simply following the status quo is somewhat disengenuous.

Now then, back to the liberalised economy. The Thatcher government opened up the City in the mid 80's in the so called 'Big Bang'. This helped to establish London as the financial capital of the world. The past decade has seen a vast increase in merger and aquisitions, with many British companies being picked up by overseas firms. With London at the forefront of the financial community this has led to booming revenues for the City. Add in the vast amount of cheap credit flooding the world markets and its a boom time for financial centres, with London riding at the head of the pack.

So, it's my belief that it's that this has driven our economy over the past decade with large scale immigration also playing a big part. What Gordon Brown has done is use the growth in the City to spend (and then spend some more) in the public sector. He has splurged like no chancellor before him (and hopefully after him). Unfortunately the vast majority of this extra money has gone on wages and pensions so the real improvements in public services have been nothing like what could have been achieved given the increase in funding given to them. His oft. touted record on employment looks far less impressive when you take into account the proportion of public sector jobs (ie non wealth creating) and the huge increase in people claiming incapacity benefits (who don't appear as unemployed). It is often said that employment isn't a measure of an economies success but rather productivity. Unfortunately Brown seems to be an economist of the Keynesian school and as such uses employment as one of his key barometers. it would be nice to see productivity used as a measure far more than is currently the case, especially in the public sector, but unfortunately as long as public spending is used as the political punching bag that it is at the moment it's unlikely any party will be able to demand efficiency improvements without the other shouting them down over 'failing to invest' in public services.

It's also worth noting that in the past few years the economy has been slowing notably. In the last budget, Brown predicted growth of 3% and we achieved just 2%. Government debt is rising and is soon set to top the 40% of GDP target Brown himself set, and it's also likely that the next chancellor will be forced to break his so called 'Golden Rule' of borrowing only to fund public spending (although to be honest this rule was broken a while back only for the goal posts to shift slightly). Now again it could be argued that Mr Brown can't carry all the flack for this but it's hard to look at the doubling of taxation under his watch as doing anything to improve our economic outlook. He's milked the cash cow for a decade to fund his public sector spending splurge and the cow might be starting to run dry. If you look at the economy he inherited with the one that Alistair Darling will inherit today it must be said that todays is far more perilously positioned. Inflation is creeping up, house prices are at ridiculous levels and public indebtedness is at a precarious level. With economies in China and America showing signs of slowing things are on something of a knife edge.

In answer to your questions aimed personally at me, I don't claim to be an expert in anything, but I do take an interest in economics and political philosophy so like to think that I'm justified in having an opinion on such matters.

With regards to taxation, yes, I do believe that people should pay for as much of the things they use as possible as I believe that we each know how to spend our own money best. Whether that means zero taxation I'm not so sure. I believe the state has a role to play in defence related issues and possibly emergency services. However this is a libertarian utopia which I don't expect to ever see fruition under our current democratic system as I'm not convinced the general public are politically or economically astute enough to ever buy it. There is however a strong case for low taxation societies. Flat taxes are growing in popularity around the world and nations such as Ireland and Hong Kong have done very well on the back of low tax economies. Indeed it was the classic liberal philosophy of minimal government intervention that led to the creation of the United States.

Norman Lamont.
 
What you are talking about is large scale massive changes, and they just aren't going to happen so its kinda pointless to talk about it.

Its like us lot deciding which one we want, ronaldinho, messi or henry... :lol:
 
Indeed Rob, which is why I added this bit at the end
There is however a strong case for low taxation societies. Flat taxes are growing in popularity around the world and nations such as Ireland and Hong Kong have done very well on the back of low tax economies.

Ireland being a fine example of a country that has led the EU zone over the past decade in economic performance based on low taxes. I don't believe that a huge amount need change except in the perception in this country that the only organisation that can supply anything important is a monopoly that half the people don't even vote for.

It's hard to complain about a nanny state in an environment where so much tax is taken from you (I hasten to use the word stolen, although you don't have any choice over either) and spent on things you have no say over.
 
well, to be fair Ireland and Hong Kong are hugely different nations and the people have completely different outlooks on life to that of the average Englishman.

Hong Kong for example, the people there consider saving money a sport, can't speak for Ireland though.

I honestly believe that nobody, NOT ONE PERSON should receive money from the goverment for doing nothing. If they can't get a job then they can pick up litter or remove grafity or mow the lawns or anything around their local community, failure to do this would simply result in no money.

My cousin who is a complete waste of oxygen once said to me "I took a job once, stacking shelves at a supermarket, 6 days a week, 8 hours a day, I resigned once I realised that I actually make more money from the dole and other benefits"
All he did, every day of the week was to sit around the house, watch tv, smoke, drink, take drugs, buy literally any luxary he wanted, games, music, clothes etc.

This is one change I would make straight away, everyone has to work for money.
 
i dont know how your are going to get MS sufferers to work, with a cattle prod perhaps.

yes the wasters that are 'working' the system need rooting out, but the system is there to care for the sick, the disadvantaged, the vulnerable areas of society.
 

i dont know how your are going to get MS sufferers to work, with a cattle prod perhaps.

yes the wasters that are 'working' the system need rooting out, but the system is there to care for the sick, the disadvantaged, the vulnerable areas of society.

which is where Utopia falls down Bruce. Yes, we should all be grown up enough to look after our own affairs, but who's to look after those who can't provide for themselves? Are you suggesting economic natural selection, those who can't contribute are left behind?

Sadly, the thorn in this argument are the wasters (my In-Laws, or half of them, at any rate..... hope the missus doesn't read this). The system needs to be tightened up to ensure those that are asking for help and support actually need it and aren't just lazy bone-idle gobshites trying to stop our new ground (oops, sorry, crossed threads..)

One point on the immigration thing.... we're actually a net gain on that.... how ironic that the much derided Polish invasion has been so good to our economy
 
From what Ive seen, the Polish are prepared to graft for the money and fit in with the local culture. I've got no quams with that.

Im sure Robert Warzycha served me in a bar the other day.
 
which is where Utopia falls down Bruce. Yes, we should all be grown up enough to look after our own affairs, but who's to look after those who can't provide for themselves? Are you suggesting economic natural selection, those who can't contribute are left behind?

Sadly, the thorn in this argument are the wasters (my In-Laws, or half of them, at any rate..... hope the missus doesn't read this). The system needs to be tightened up to ensure those that are asking for help and support actually need it and aren't just lazy bone-idle gobshites trying to stop our new ground (oops, sorry, crossed threads..)

One point on the immigration thing.... we're actually a net gain on that.... how ironic that the much derided Polish invasion has been so good to our economy

Bruce? or are you going to pull another admin ;)

amazed you have the stones to bring immigration into this, i cant describe the severity of the last forum i did similar on. As for the poles, great if they are willing to work and contribute, then they have my blessing ten fold, BUT individuals, british of origin (whatever that means) and of foreign origin (also whatever that means) (hope your happy liberty and all those other hairy armpitted lesbian brigades fighting for rapists and murderers rights) that have previous convictions, that dont contribute to the benefit of society, that habitually indulge in criminal acts, then, what is to be done?

another 10 years of turning a blind eye?

"iraq" - not in my name

"so called justice" not in MY name.
 
I would be quite happy to donate to charitable causes that I wish to donate to, and judging by the billions donated voluntarily by Britons each year I would say that many others are too.

I'd say that this would be a far more reliable measure of ourselves as a society than being forced to hand over cash to support causes we have no choice in or affection for.
 

i dont know how your are going to get MS sufferers to work, with a cattle prod perhaps.

yes the wasters that are 'working' the system need rooting out, but the system is there to care for the sick, the disadvantaged, the vulnerable areas of society.

on the subject of MS, educate me, does it mean that they literally can't do ANYTHING? can't lift a finger even?

I'm not convinced of that and believe they could do some desk work at home, whether it be council correspondance, stamping addresses on leaflets or something like that.

Nobody should be a sponge, of course there are some people who are unfortunate enough not to be able to do simple things and yes they should be supported but I don't consider Laziness to be one of them.
 
Personally speaking, I think the British-born "wasters" and complainers should be deported to the eastern parts of Slovakia and Poland to see why the immigrants that they whinge about are willing to work far harder and with a better attitude than they will ever be willing or able to. After all, we are all Europeans now.

And for those who are looking at Ireland and Hong Kong with rose-tinted glasses, try asking people who live there about the financial gulf between the haves and the have-nots, the connections between organised crime and the political and business elites, and the breakdown of what used to be thought of the traditional values in the society.
 
more discipline
if kids are playing up,at home, parents should discipline them - smack their arse (not violently abuse them)
bring back the cane in schools
build more jails, then make sure police, courts do their job
sack incompetent, out of touch judges
impose stiffer penalties for repeat offenders
 
I would be quite happy to donate to charitable causes that I wish to donate to, and judging by the billions donated voluntarily by Britons each year I would say that many others are too.

I'd say that this would be a far more reliable measure of ourselves as a society than being forced to hand over cash to support causes we have no choice in or affection for.

I'm afraid it would be a perfectly reliable measure of ourselves as a society, and people would suffer horrifically as a result.... we're great at charitable grand gestures, but people aren't naturally altruistic on a level that would be required to support those that would otherwise be left behind.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be quids in, but that doesn't make it right.

Bruce? or are you going to pull another admin

Actually Suits, I was just expending on your very well made point in a response to something Bruce had posted... chill pill:P :lol:
 
Actually Suits, I was just expending on your very well made point in a response to something Bruce had posted... chill pill:P :lol:

that wasnt aimed at you, danny called me 'chico' elsewhere and i replied "chico?" the sneaky swine then changed his original post to reads 'suits' hence making me look foolish. I was wondering if he would change it this time also.

all in jest :D (follow and digest that ;) )
 

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