GROUP G - Belgium, Panama, Tunisia, England

[gonetomorrow]

It's a dead rubber tonight. The main aim will be to avoid injuries and suspensions. What a bore.

 

[davek]

Martinez has made it his top priority to avoid that half of the draw...so not only are we paying their second string team, we're playing their second string team who won't be trying


Not sure how much confidence will come from beating a second string Belgium side


- (Gary Neville was saying something similar on itv)


It is delusional to say that one half of the draw


(Fra vs Arg) vs (Uru vs Por) against (Bra vs Mex) vs (bel\Eng vs Sen\Col)


isn't miles harder than


Bel or Eng vs Jpn, then Swizz\Sweden vs Spain/russia or Croatia/Denmark.


there are only 3 possible finalists from that half - Eng or Bel with one of Cro and Sp.


To say that the top half is stacked is something of an understatement imho

Just pick a squad team why go all out when it's such an obvious disadvantage to win?

It would be a dreadful result, a massively hollow victory for the present which most likely would be a precursor to our earlier elimination.

Beating a second string that isn't trying has few benefits beyond today.

You think Turnip Southgate wont be doing the exact same thing and resting players and telling those that play not to exert themselves?

Wait till tonight. You'll see.

 

[Yid4life]

Reading Scottish football forums on an England match-day is very enjoyable. Some interesting & well balanced opinions.

 

[Billy Dean]

lol at first I thought this mean't @davek and Southgate were school chums

Maybe that explains @davek 's hatred of him?

 

[Billy Dean]

I think Bobby's playing mind games. They'll be going out to win tonight.

 

[Blues Harp]

I think Bobby's playing mind games. They'll be going out to win tonight.

He could only do that if he had a mind.......the Belgian players will decide this themselves without any help from himlol

 

[Librarian]

looking forward to this, it’ll be like a watching a couple of submissives lobbing dildos at each other

 

[Chris O'Connor]

You think Turnip Southgate wont be doing the exact same thing and resting players and telling those that play not to exert themselves?

Wait till tonight. You'll see.

Hope you're right Davek, I think there's a real chance of progress if he does.

 

[The binman chronicles]

This could go down in the annals as the match nobody wanted to win. Expect the defenders to just part when anyone has an attack and then the fowards will just kick it out for a throw in. Defenders to just start body slamming their opponents in the box WWE style. The OG count is going to have to be 'phenomenal' to see any side win.

 

[Librarian]

‘Pull my hair’
‘no, you pull my hair’
‘no no after you’

 

[Lob]

Got the makings of a great game this has. Two teams trying to make it look like they want to win but in reality not really bothered and trying to pick up a few extra yellow cards to have a worse fair play than the other.

Doesn't really matter which path we get to me. You are going to have to play the best teams at some point down the road anyway and i would rather go out earlier than later when it hurts more. I wouldn't be surprised if we went out in the next round actually. Lets be honest, there is zero chance of this England team winning the world cup. They haven't even played a good team yet and when the pressure is on and they are playing a good team, the lack of quality and experience will be on full display and many of them will be running for their mammies, Manager included.

 

[Billy Dean]

https://www.football365.com/news/playing-for-second-would-be-foolish-for-england

England last beat Germany in a competitive match in 2001. England last beat France in a competitive match in 1982. England last beat Spain in a competitive match (penalties don’t count) in 1980. England last beat Italy in a competitive match in 1977. England last beat Portugal in a competitive match in 1966. England last beat Brazil in a competitive match in…never.

The list of countries that England have beaten during the last four World Cups is pathetic: Tunisia, Panama, Slovenia, Paraguay, Trinidad and Tobago, Ecuador. There are supporters aged 21 who have no memory of England beating a higher-ranked nation at the World Cup. Forget 52 years of hurt; it’s 16 years of abject misery.

Given that litany of underperformance, you may reasonably surmise that England choosing which teams they beat is a beggar being particularly choosy. When the opportunity presents itself to pitch yourself against a team with better players – if not necessarily a better team – you take it. Particularly when you have just enjoyed a walk in the park, albeit with an attempted mugging.

There is an argument for England to try and engineer second place in Group G. In fact, I’ll go further than that: it would be logical for England to try and engineer second place in Group G. It would leave them with likely fixtures against Colombia and Sweden or Switzerland to reach the semi-finals. Finish first, and Brazil probably lie in wait in the quarter-finals.

But this is not logic; it is football. The statistician might scoff at a team actively seeking a harder draw, but statistics can only ever proffer a part-solution. For every measurable aspect of sport there are at least two more intangibles. Morale, momentum, belief; these have unfairly become clichéd buzzwords uttered by middle management. On the ground they still mean something.

Falsely engineering any negative result is a risk; it sends a message of fear to the squad. ‘We’re doing this so we don’t have to face them,’ is an admission of weakness, as if Brazil are a dreaded bogeyman. The nature of a knockout competition is that you will eventually have to beat one of the opposition you initially avoided. The psychological disadvantage at that point should be obvious.

But you can sell that same problem the other way. If England opted to finish second and faced, say, Colombia, it is hardly a leap to suggest that Jose Pekerman’s side would have added psychological motivation. Thought we were an easy touch, did you? Let’s see about that.

Moreover, any fear would be largely misplaced. Brazil, possible quarter-final opponents, have more talent and depth than England but haven’t troubled their highest potential so far in Russia. They drew with Switzerland and scraped past Costa Rica. It has been an ill-judged and arrogant claim in the past, but now rings true: no team is desperate to play this England.

History teaches Gareth Southgate the same lesson. Not since 1982 has a World Cup winner failed to top their group. It is a statistical quirk rather than watertight evidence, but the theory holds. Writing in his World Cup column for the Daily Telegraph, Cesc Fabregas explained why:

‘Even though we sometimes knew it could get us a more difficult opponent, we always tried to win every game. Our mentality was always to want to finish first and to win. For your dignity and for the country, you always want to go for the win no matter what.’​

‘Dignity’ is an interesting word for Fabregas to use there, because it demonstrates the key flaw in engineering a negative result in pursuit of an easier draw. Defeat lingers in the psyche of elite sportspeople, eating away. To deliberately welcome that intruder into your home is to risk being ransacked. Accept defeat, and defeat becomes a habit. The ‘greater good’ argument doesn’t work – it makes you a hostage to fortune.

There are sporting reasons to push for victory too. So far in this World Cup, England have addressed their recent inability to beat weaker teams at major tournaments (Russia, Slovakia, USA, Algeria), but there are still questions about how this squad deals with adversity. It has long been a problem for England. Since the 1966 final, England have not won a game at the World Cup having conceded the first goal. A stern test before the knockout stages should be viewed as an opportunity, not a nuisance.

The key to the general mood of optimism – that has given way to unhelpful giddiness in some quarters – surrounding England’s squad is that players and manager are united not necessarily in expectation of glory, but in doing their best at all times. Only once in their history have England taken maximum points from a major tournament group stage, when Ron Greenwood’s team beat France, Czechoslovakia and Kuwait in 1982. Whatever happens in the knockout rounds, nine points would represent significant progress.

England will make changes to face Belgium – that much is obvious. Gary Neville addressed the danger of entering the quarter-final stage with fatigued first-team players, and conceded that England had made exactly that mistake in the past. We may need Marcus Rashford and Eric Dier later in the tournament, and this is the perfect opportunity to afford them minutes in a pressure-lite scenario.

But the attitude will not, must not, change. Southgate has repeatedly preached from the same hymn sheet, stressing the importance of momentum and morale within a young squad that wishes to finally exorcise the demons of tournaments past. That task will only be made harder by accepting defeat. Play to win, whatever lies ahead.

Spot on IMO

 

[Chris O'Connor]

This could go down in the annals as the match nobody wanted to win. Expect the defenders to just part when anyone has an attack and then the fowards will just kick it out for a throw in. Defenders to just start body slamming their opponents in the box WWE style. The OG count is going to have to be 'phenomenal' to see any side win.

How about a backpass that Pickford 'accidentally' let's through his hands only for Hazard to miraculously clear it off our line

 

[Walken]

I think lots will be rested, to be honest it might be the best way to get a competitive game out of it, fringe players desperate to impress

 

[WA Toffee]

Wouldn’t it be funny if both teams set up to lose in order to get the decent half of the draw, then both get thumped in the next round