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Holgate Racially Abused By Firmino - The Guardian

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davek said:
If a player is being investigated they should be required to sit out games until a decision is made to charge them or not. That would speed this sloth-like process up as clubs would soon cooperate smartly.

That racist has been playing in important games for them and getting goals. Travesty.
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Perhaps they cut a deal. Need him for City Spurs the FA cup and Porto mr FA so can you leave any judgement until after that please?
 
Dabluez said:
It doesn't work like that you though. The only way you could thoroughly investigate an allegation like this in days if you had highly paid professionals on hand waiting for such an incident. You would need professional investigators, legal professionals, experts at culling media footage, sign language experts, body language experts plus a QC all sitting round with their diaries free just in case an incident like this pops up.

You will have conflicting accounts of what happened and everything needs to be thoroughly investigated, cross referenced and any anomalies looked at. You then have to make a judgement that could later be tested in the court of Arbitration for Sport that decides on the balance of probabilities what actually happened.

Make a mistake and you could be looking at millions of pounds in damages.

Laughably though you have just ignored all that and branded a player a racist because it fits with your warped hatred of the RS.

The problem with your kangeroo court mentality though is that if you get rushed judgments then it could easily be an Everton player branded a racist next time and in effect banned before an investigation has even started. I know you have a pathological hatred of anything to do with the RS but frankly Dave some things are far more important than Football rivalries.

Racism is abhorrent and dealing with it properly means we should be patient, shouldn't pre-judge things and above all shouldn't bring rivalries into it. Racism used to be prevalent at all grounds but has now largely been eradicated, that was achieved by being fair minded.

So why can't we show a bit of patience wait for the investigation to be completed, read the subsequent report and then make an informed unbiased judgement.
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And if you have all those professionals in place and spend all that time you suggest - you can still come to a conclusion that could be challenged.

These are common sense decisions. Anyone off this forum could be shown all angles of an incident, all audio recordings and determine in a few hours whether there was a case to answer.
 

davek said:
And if you have all those professionals in place and spend all that time you suggest - you can still come to a conclusion that could be challenged.

These are common sense decisions. Anyone off this forum could be shown all angles of an incident, all audio recordings and determine in a few hours whether there was a case to answer.
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Yes and if it is challenged then you have to be able to show that you have investigated the matter thoroughly and fairly.

As for their being a case to answer that cannot be based on players reactions. You need proper evidence, witnesses have to be interviewed and then crucially you have to decide who the most plausible and reliable witnesses are.

If you look at the Suarez racism case the FA judgement ran to 115 pages. That is how complex and time consuming a case like this is.

In a legal case the required level of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. In the Clattenberg case it took the Police only 11 days to realise that they couldn't meet the required threshold to charge him. In the FA's case their burden of proof was much lower, they only had to decide on the balance of probabilities. To do that you have to be more thorough and actually determine what those probabilities are. So whilst it took the Police 11 days it took the the FA another two weeks.

Given the number of players, officials and even members of the crowd who may need to be interviewed this case could drag on for quite awhile yet.
 
Dabluez said:
Yes and if it is challenged then you have to be able to show that you have investigated the matter thoroughly and fairly.

As for their being a case to answer that cannot be based on players reactions. You need proper evidence, witnesses have to be interviewed and then crucially you have to decide who the most plausible and reliable witnesses are.

If you look at the Suarez racism case the FA judgement ran to 115 pages. That is how complex and time consuming a case like this is.

In a legal case the required level of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. In the Clattenberg case it took the Police only 11 days to realise that they couldn't meet the required threshold to charge him. In the FA's case their burden of proof was much lower, they only had to decide on the balance of probabilities. To do that you have to be more thorough and actually determine what those probabilities are. So whilst it took the Police 11 days it took the the FA another two weeks.

Given the number of players, officials and even members of the crowd who may need to be interviewed this case could drag on for quite awhile yet.
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Good post all this, the longer it drags the more I think there is a case, you can be sure if there was no case Liverpool would fast track it
 
davek said:
If a player is being investigated they should be required to sit out games until a decision is made to charge them or not. That would speed this sloth-like process up as clubs would soon cooperate smartly.

That racist has been playing in important games for them and getting goals. Travesty.
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I’ll be honest I think that’s a dreadful idea . This country has a tradition dating back centuries of innocent until proven guilty , effectively you’d be convicting a player without due process . Not to mention The clubs would be hugely penalised for allegations that may subsequently be unfounded or unproven , one of our own was accused and cleared in the past let’s not forget .You’d basically be throwing the baby out with the bath water .

I think the RS are generally a disgrace , I think the media treatment of this has been appalling , think the RS fan behaviour towards holgate was nothing short of sickening and the FA are as usual not exactly dynamic however in their defence there is clearly a lot of work to be done but none of that means we should abandon principles and introduce what would be draconian overreaction.
 
Dabluez said:
Yes and if it is challenged then you have to be able to show that you have investigated the matter thoroughly and fairly.

As for their being a case to answer that cannot be based on players reactions. You need proper evidence, witnesses have to be interviewed and then crucially you have to decide who the most plausible and reliable witnesses are.

If you look at the Suarez racism case the FA judgement ran to 115 pages. That is how complex and time consuming a case like this is.

In a legal case the required level of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. In the Clattenberg case it took the Police only 11 days to realise that they couldn't meet the required threshold to charge him. In the FA's case their burden of proof was much lower, they only had to decide on the balance of probabilities. To do that you have to be more thorough and actually determine what those probabilities are. So whilst it took the Police 11 days it took the the FA another two weeks.

Given the number of players, officials and even members of the crowd who may need to be interviewed this case could drag on for quite awhile yet.
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This is only true for criminal law, the threshold in civil court is considerably lower. Either way this isn't a legal matter, at least not in the first instance, it is a professional standards matter.
 

Dabluez said:
Yes and if it is challenged then you have to be able to show that you have investigated the matter thoroughly and fairly.

As for their being a case to answer that cannot be based on players reactions. You need proper evidence, witnesses have to be interviewed and then crucially you have to decide who the most plausible and reliable witnesses are.

If you look at the Suarez racism case the FA judgement ran to 115 pages. That is how complex and time consuming a case like this is.

In a legal case the required level of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. In the Clattenberg case it took the Police only 11 days to realise that they couldn't meet the required threshold to charge him. In the FA's case their burden of proof was much lower, they only had to decide on the balance of probabilities. To do that you have to be more thorough and actually determine what those probabilities are. So whilst it took the Police 11 days it took the the FA another two weeks.

Given the number of players, officials and even members of the crowd who may need to be interviewed this case could drag on for quite awhile yet.
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The FA case against Suarez dragged on needlessly because they fell for the BS social media commentary about linguistic experts to get an interpretation they didn't require because Suarez himself had admitted the context and meaning to his words.

The FA are a private body and they have their rules. The law would reluctantly intervene to reverse their decision making as it would run a coach and horses through the rights of other private bodies to do the same thing. Civil society would become impossible under such circumstances.

They have the surveillance technology available in the top flight to make considered judgements quickly. Interview the main protagonists and then make an informed judgement.
 
Harryflashman said:
I’ll be honest I think that’s a dreadful idea . This country has a tradition dating back centuries of innocent until proven guilty , effectively you’d be convicting a player without due process . Not to mention The clubs would be hugely penalised for allegations that may subsequently be unfounded or unproven , one of our own was accused and cleared in the past let’s not forget .You’d basically be throwing the baby out with the bath water .

I think the RS are generally a disgrace , I think the media treatment of this has been appalling , think the RS fan behaviour towards holgate was nothing short of sickening and the FA are as usual not exactly dynamic however in their defence there is clearly a lot of work to be done but none of that means we should abandon principles and introduce what would be draconian overreaction.
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You misinterpreted what I was suggesting mate. My point was that if players were faced with waiting until a declaration on charges were made then the authorities and clubs would use existing technology and fast track their evidence gathering on face to face interviews with players of clubs looking to avoid a missed game and decisions could be made rapidly.

How long does it take the FA to decide whether a red card stands or not? Days. Why are we pretending that the same speed cant be applied to verbal abuse?
 

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