Holland

[billycopper]

Take the Holland (World Cup Finalists) lineup:

Steckelen
Van Der Wiel Heitinga Mathijsen Van Bronckhorst
Van Bommell Van Der Veart
Robben Sneijder Kuyt
Van Persie

Now take the Everton lineup in the same formation- one that I have been proposing for a long time:

Howard
Coleman Jagielka Yobo Baines
Heitinga Fellaini
Arteta Cahill Pienaar
Saha

How many of the dutch team would you take at Everton? Sneijder instead of Cahill, ok. Most likely Van Persie over Saha. Probably Robben on the left instead of Pienaar. It's not a lot, is it?

Germany use the same system too:

Neuer
Lahm Metzelder Friedrich Boateng
Schweinsteigger Khedira
Muller Ozil Podolski
Klose

I'm a big fan of Lahm, so Coleman would have to wait his time. We could drop Heitinga into the back four and partner Schweinsteigger alongside Fellaini. Ozil would get in ahead of Cahill. Podolski would probably edge out Pienaar, and Klose would get the nod over Saha. Even so, it's still 6-5 to our current crop of talent!

I really feel that Heitinga and Fellaini would form an awesome barrier infront of the back four. Jags and Yobo would just need to mop things up. Schweinsteigger in particular has shown that the role isn't purely destructive. The system would also allow Coleman and Baines to get forward, as Lahm does for Germany. Not only that, but by freeing the midfielders from the responsibility of covering their fullbacks, they are able to float and to get into the box more frequently.

With the Germans and the Dutch having used the formation so successfully during the World Cup, I do expect many Premiership teams to follow suit next season. Liverpool already employ it, with Mascherano and Lucas infront of the back four. Chelsea have Essien and Mikel playing deeper. With City it's Barry and De Jong. It seems the natural shape for us. But, with Fellaini unlikely to make the opening day, will the gaffer opt for Heitinga-Neville or Heitinga-Rodwell?

 

[chicoazul]

Good thoughts there lid.

Obviously when Pienaar, Arteta and Heitinga leave before September we will be a tad less optimistic about our chances.

 

[best little spaniard]

But that's not our system.

What is it with this two defensive midfielders crap?? Do people actually want us to play dire, defensive, crap football??

And dont point at Germany, Schweinsteiger and Khedira aren't out and out DMs.

If you actually want to compare

Howard
Neville-Jags-Heitinga-Baines
Fellaini-Arteta
Bilyaletdinov-Cahill-Pienaar
Yakubu/Saha


Stekelenburg
Van Der Wiel-Heitinga-Mathijsen-Van Bronckhorst
Van Bommel-De Jong
Robben-Sneijder-Kuyt
Van Persie




And when was the last time Metzelder played for Germany????


If you're going to do these articles, think them out, and at least get them factually correct

Sorry for being an ass

 

[chicoazul]

SMACKDOWN!

 

[Cena]

I think most top clubs would beat the majority of Earth Goblet teams. As this tournament has proved, internation football is not the pinnacle anymore.

I think Inter Milan would have beaten most teams in the World Cup

 

[Rook]

I think most top clubs would beat the majority of Earth Goblet teams. As this tournament has proved, internation football is not the pinnacle anymore.

I think Inter Milan would have beaten most teams in the World Cup

If you give good international teams time to gel like club sides then they might be better. I think Inter would probably beat Germany, however I also think Germany is better than the runners up Bayern.

 

[Alio]

I'm guessing it was Mertesacker, I always get those 2 confused =)

 

[ToxtethBlue]

There's nothing wrong with the system but you need the right players to occupy the roles to make it work. It's no surprise that Germany have looked the most balanced and fluid team in the tournament, and they've had Bastian Schweinsteiger, a playmaker, playing as one of the two centre midfielders play. And that's where Arteta will continue to play for us.

We don't have a 'number 10' with great flair and imagination and we lack pace in wide areas, there's not enough there to balance things out. And Cahill plays far closer to the striker than players like Ozil and Sneijder.

Moyes will opt for Arteta in the middle of the park, and the shape will stay the same.

 

[billycopper]

But that's not our system.

What is it with this two defensive midfielders crap?? Do people actually want us to play dire, defensive, crap football??

And dont point at Germany, Schweinsteiger and Khedira aren't out and out DMs.

If you actually want to compare

Howard
Neville-Jags-Heitinga-Baines
Fellaini-Arteta
Bilyaletdinov-Cahill-Pienaar
Yakubu/Saha


Stekelenburg
Van Der Wiel-Heitinga-Mathijsen-Van Bronckhorst
Van Bommel-De Jong
Robben-Sneijder-Kuyt
Van Persie




And when was the last time Metzelder played for Germany????


If you're going to do these articles, think them out, and at least get them factually correct

Sorry for being an ass

We've had this out before, so there's no point going over old ground. Whether it's Metzelder or Mertesacker, it makes no difference to the shape or the chances of them getting into our side. "That's not our system" is the poorest argument going. 4-1-4-1 wasn't our system until Moyes adopted it. A team needs to evolve. Your point about it being negative doesn't stack up either, with Germany having scored 4 goals on three occasions playing that way. Arteta can take a man on better than anyone else at the club, he can hit a ball better than anyone else and he can pick a pass better than anyone else. We need him further up the park where he can hurt the opposition, not sat infront of his own back four.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

And Germany use Bastian Schweinstiger, a deep lying playmaker (converted wide player), in that formation, not two defensive types like Fellaini and Heitinga. Surely you see this? You mention Liverpool using Lucas and Mascherano as the two, but look at the difference in there results when Alonso played there. Once again, a playmaker.

It isn't really realistic anyway, Arteta hasn't started as a wide player since Wigan away during the 08-09 season, around 30 odd games. I struggle to see why Moyes would change a winning formula, and that's exactly what it is.

 

[Cena]

Deep-lying playmakers are the future, they are always the ones who dictate, linking back to the front. Notice how long ball football was a major part of our game until Arteta came back last season.

 

[billycopper]

And Germany use Bastian Schweinstiger, a deep lying playmaker (converted wide player), in that formation, not two defensive types like Fellaini and Heitinga. Surely you see this? You mention Liverpool using Lucas and Mascherano as the two, but look at the difference in there results when Alonso played there. Once again, a playmaker.

It isn't really realistic anyway, Arteta hasn't started as a wide player since Wigan away during the 08-09 season, around 30 odd games. I struggle to see why Moyes would change a winning formula, and that's exactly what it is.

Ballack would have occupied that role if he hadn't been injured. He's hardly a playmaker. I would love to have an allround player like Essien in that role but, given what we have available, I think that Fellaini and Heitinga are the men for the job. We've discussed Heitinga at centreback before and agreed that, with Jags and Heit both being under 6ft, we would be susceptible to high balls.

The three midfielders aren't restricted to staying in their respective positions. Arteta would be as free to roam as Robben for Holland and Muller for Germany. It would be great to have him in the middle, dictating play like Sneijder or Ozil, but I can't see Moyes dropping Cahill just yet.

I'm sure that Moyes has a masterplan that he's working to. If, in that scheme, Rodwell will establish himself as a centreback and Fellaini will be a holding midfielder, where will Heitinga play? In place of Jags? In place of Coleman? The manager does have a safety first approach, but his ultimate aim is to play attractive, flowing football. Our current system is defensively-minded and will need to be adapted for us to be more expansive.

For those who say that having two holding midfielders is negative, the top scorers in the tournament are Germany with 13 goals and Holland with 12 goals. Argentina have 10, Brazil 9, Portugal 7 and Spain 6. Germany have conceded as few goals as Spain (2), whilst scoring more than twice as many. Whereas Holland have let in the same number of goals as Brazil (4), but have scored a third more goals. Spain and Brazil have by far the greater talent man for man, but have been markedly less successful than the dutch and the germans. Why couldn't we enjoy the same success?

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Ballack is much more of a playmaker than Fellaini or Heitinga, he was an attacking midfielder for both Bayern and Bayer Leverkusen and has always had playmaking qualities. And we haven't seen either Heitinga or Jagielka play together because of injuries in other positions, it's still up for debate whether they can play together, I don't see why not personally, it's not like any of our tall centre backs are actually dominant in the air and Jagielka and Heitinga can jump and attack the ball well enough.

Arteta does not play outwide and he doesn't play in Cahill's position, he plays as an out and out centre midfielder in that 'two' that your talking about. He's been partnered by the likes of Neville, Heitinga and even Osman. I don't think I ever recall him playing in Cahill's position for us and he hasn't played outwide for 30 odd games since he's been fit and available for selection.

The only difference between the current system we use and the one you want to see is Arteta in for one of the holding midfielders (Fellaini or Heitinga) and Bilyaletdinov taking his place outwide, that's not defensive minded, it's more expansive than the formation and personnel you are putting forward. A defensive player, a forward thinking centre midfielder and Three attacking players ahead of them.

4-2-3-1 can be used in different ways, especially in that two, Germany use Bastian Schweinstiger, a playmaker, in there. It can be negative, and it can be effective, but you've got to use the right personnel to make it work. Alonso instead of Lucas, for example.

 

[Jamo Martinez]

I see where you're coming from but as TB says it's about horses for courses. I also prefer Arteta in the schweinsteiger role but if you put him further foreward I'd rather see Rodwell next to Fellaini and Heitinga replacing Yobo alongside Jags

 

[billycopper]

Ballack is much more of a playmaker than Fellaini or Heitinga, he was an attacking midfielder for both Bayern and Bayer Leverkusen and has always had playmaking qualities. And we haven't seen either Heitinga or Jagielka play together because of injuries in other positions, it's still up for debate whether they can play together, I don't see why not personally, it's not like any of our tall centre backs are actually dominant in the air and Jagielka and Heitinga can jump and attack the ball well enough.

Arteta does not play outwide and he doesn't play in Cahill's position, he plays as an out and out centre midfielder in that 'two' that your talking about. He's been partnered by the likes of Neville, Heitinga and even Osman. I don't think I ever recall him playing in Cahill's position for us and he hasn't played outwide for 30 odd games since he's been fit and available for selection.

The only difference between the current system we use and the one you want to see is Arteta in for one of the holding midfielders (Fellaini or Heitinga) and Bilyaletdinov taking his place outwide, that's not defensive minded, it's more expansive than the formation and personnel you are putting forward. A defensive player, a forward thinking centre midfielder and Three attacking players ahead of them.

4-2-3-1 can be used in different ways, especially in that two, Germany use Bastian Schweinstiger, a playmaker, in there. It can be negative, and it can be effective, but you've got to use the right personnel to make it work. Alonso instead of Lucas, for example.

Ballack is highly comparable to Van Bommell. Both are former attacking midfielders who now use their experience to nullify the opposition. Perhaps Cahill could follow suit once his legs no longer carry him into the box? It appears to be working for Scholes at United.

Perhaps Heitinga and Jags can play together. I feel that Johnny is more composed on the ball than Jagielka, but that he's possibly not as aware and as disciplined as the Englishman. There have been occasions where the former Ajax defender has shown an eye for spreading the ball around, which is why I fancied him for the 'quarterback' role. Rodwell would be equally as good. I can imagine opposition midfielders quaking at the prospect of facing our gruesome twosome.

I wasn't suggesting that Arteta plays either wide right or as a second striker. He would be part of a creative trio with all the freedom of Ozil or Robben. With two anchors behind him, he wouldn't be as duty-bound to get back to defend, giving him more energy to attack.

As I see it, or current system is this:
_________Howard
Neville Jagielka Distin Baines
________Heitinga
Osman Arteta Cahill Pienaar
_________Saha

Rather than this:

________Howard
Neville Jagielka Distin Baines
_____Arteta Heitinga
___Osman Cahill Pienaar
________Saha

If Arteta was playing the Alonso/Schweinsteigger/Van Der Veart role towards the end of the season, then it was a reprihensible dereliction of duty for him to get forward as often as he did to score just under a goal a game. Arteta provides as many assists as anyone for us. How will he be able to create goalscoring opportunities for others from infront of his back four? Alonso might be the master of long passes, but how many of them result in a goal? Spain have the pace of Villa and Torres to break quickly on the counter. We have Cahill and Osman!