Holland

[ToxtethBlue]

I think you are overdoing it to be honest, he's always chipped in with goals but he's never going to be a regular goalscorer from open play. He scored three penalties and a freekick.

He played centre midfield today, I can't see that changing, Rodwell was the one who played further forward, Cahill did so in the second half. Why would people be intimidated by Fellaini and Heitinga? There are lots of yard dogs in our League, players who relish the physical challenge, and the vast majority of players know there are limits to how physical a player can be nowadays.

What they don't want to play against is someone who can move them about and put them on the backfoot for 90 minutes. And that's where we are at now, we are past trying to overpower opposition team's and wasting energy, we can out think and out play them in possession, keep the ball, pass and move.

Now I wouldn't be against Rodwell coming in because he's much more dynamic player than either Fellaini and Heitinga, he can take up a number of roles and he's far quicker and athletic than anything we have at present. But a midfield three of Heitinga, Fellaini and Arteta isn't, it's one paced and none of them are natural supporting players. I could see our forward player becoming isolated.

 

[billycopper]

Pienaar has never been a goalscorer, but he's worked on that aspect of his game and had probably his best ever season in terms of finding the net. Our lone striker is never going to score 30 goals a season, so we need to be chipping in from midfield. Arteta got forward against City and Hull to score from open play. He also won the penalty at Blackburn with quick feet in the box. Isn't he the most fouled player in the Premiership? Lets draw those fouls in and around the opposition area instead of our own.

Why would people be intimidated by Fellaini and Heitinga?! Did you see how Papa Bouba Diop pulled out of a 50-50 ball when he saw Heitinga coming in? There will be very few players who will get much change out of the pair of them.

Holland may well win the World Cup tomorrow with Van Bommell battering Iniesta and Xavi into submission. In the Premier League we are a Holland, whereas Man United, Chelsea, City and Arsenal are a Spain. It would be great to play flowing football, but we must also be prepared to win ugly. Scholes, Carrick, Fletcher, Lampard, Essien, Mikel, Barry, DeJong, Diaby and Fabregas would rather face Arteta, Pienaar or Osman than Fellaini and Heitinga I can assure you. We only have a couple of players with real class and composure on the ball. If they get shut down, have an off day or are injured then the game is lost unless we have another quality that we can rely on. The big four, on the otherhand, can summon another superstar from the bench.

Where are you getting this midfield three of Heitinga, Fellaini and Arteta from? My midfield three is Arteta, Cahill and Pienaar with Coleman and Baines providing an option out wide. The only alternatives we have in the creative department are Osman, Anichebe and Bily. Ossie is far too anonymous most of the time. Big Vic might develop into a decent player, he could potentially be as direct as Robben is for Holland. Bily has done well with goals, but doesn't impose himself on the game enough. Rodwell will be a contender for one of the holding roles as he develops. We need shrewd players further up the park who can move the opposition around and find space.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

I'd rather face a midfield two of Heitinga and Fellaini than I would Arteta and Fellaini. One partnership has a great mix of physical and technical attributes and the other is limited to alot of physical presence and little in terms of creativity and composure. Yes Fellaini is neat and tidy and Heitinga is capable of making an inch perfect 40 yard pass but tell them to come and pick the ball up under pressure and watch them struggle.

I'd know I can pressure and harry players like Fellaini and Heitinga into losing the ball, with Arteta's that's not the case, he'll just turn on a sixpence and leave me for dead. I'd rather come up against someone who isn't likely to move me around the pitch and make me run, someone who can see the game that little bit quicker and find gaps that your average player wouldn't see. Arteta is the most complete player midfielder at the club, he combines creativity with tenacity and a very capable defensive game. So yes, I'd rather come up against Fellaini and Heitinga, no question about it.

It's a different question when you talk about Osman and Arteta as a partnership, there clearly needs to be a balance, but Fellaini or Heitinga is enough, two is just going over the top. And even saying that, we beat Chelsea and Man Utd with them playing as a central two, we've rarely did that in the past with players like Neville, Carsley, Heitinga and Fellaini playing together.

 

[billycopper]

I remember Lampard saying that the ground he least enjoyed visiting was Goodison. That isn't because we play neat football. It's because we get in people's faces and close down quickly.

Most teams we come up against will defend deep, most likely with only one man up front. They're not going to close down our defensive anchors. The job of Heitinga and Fellaini will be to stop people like Lampard, Gerrard, Fabregas and Milner getting in range for a shot. They will be there to take the ball off them and play it simply into the creative midfielders. Van Bommell and De Jong have been described as the gatekeepers for Holland. Our defensive midfielders would be expected to perform the same job with no frills.

Robben, Sneijder and Kuyt seem to have no problem getting on the ball without a 'deep lying playmaker' behind them.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

He actually said that a year or two ago and as of then we had yet to beat them in god knows how long. And guess what, Arteta and Osman get on the ball and what happens, we beat them for the first time in ages. Speaks for itself really, poor example to use. Have a look at our results as a whole since Arteta has played there, why would anyone with half a brain change it? We are more consistent and have even started to match and even better the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd. And you can mention players like Lampard's opinions and voice your own, fair enough, but these results speak for themselves.

Most team's have started to defend deep against us because we've become much better in possession and have forced them to retreat. Why is this? Because Arteta gets on the ball and controls everything with his wide range of skills. With Heitinga and Fellaini in there team's would push up and see more of the ball, of that I have no doubts.

Holland have much more flair, creativity and pace than we do, they can balance out there lack of creativity in the middle of the park. And you've mentioned Germany, who use Schweinstiger there, aswell as Spain, who use Alonso. Pirlo and Gattuso, Scholes and Keane, Alonso and Mascherano, Xavi and Toure/Busquets, the list goes on and on.

 

[Neiler]

I'd rather face a midfield two of Heitinga and Fellaini than I would Arteta and Fellaini. One partnership has a great mix of physical and technical attributes and the other is limited to alot of physical presence and little in terms of creativity and composure. Yes Fellaini is neat and tidy and Heitinga is capable of making an inch perfect 40 yard pass but tell them to come and pick the ball up under pressure and watch them struggle.

I'd know I can pressure and harry players like Fellaini and Heitinga into losing the ball, with Arteta's that's not the case, he'll just turn on a sixpence and leave me for dead. I'd rather come up against someone who isn't likely to move me around the pitch and make me run, someone who can see the game that little bit quicker and find gaps that your average player wouldn't see. Arteta is the most complete player midfielder at the club, he combines creativity with tenacity and a very capable defensive game. So yes, I'd rather come up against Fellaini and Heitinga, no question about it.

It's a different question when you talk about Osman and Arteta as a partnership, there clearly needs to be a balance, but Fellaini or Heitinga is enough, two is just going over the top. And even saying that, we beat Chelsea and Man Utd with them playing as a central two, we've rarely did that in the past with players like Neville, Carsley, Heitinga and Fellaini playing together.

Dont think so mate!

 

[billycopper]

He actually said that a year or two ago and as of then we had yet to beat them in god knows how long. And guess what, Arteta and Osman get on the ball and what happens, we beat them for the first time in ages. Speaks for itself really, poor example to use. Have a look at our results as a whole since Arteta has played there, why would anyone with half a brain change it? We are more consistent and have even started to match and even better the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd. And you can mention players like Lampard's opinions and voice your own, fair enough, but these results speak for themselves.

Most team's have started to defend deep against us because we've become much better in possession and have forced them to retreat. Why is this? Because Arteta gets on the ball and controls everything with his wide range of skills. With Heitinga and Fellaini in there team's would push up and see more of the ball, of that I have no doubts.

Holland have much more flair, creativity and pace than we do, they can balance out there lack of creativity in the middle of the park. And you've mentioned Germany, who use Schweinstiger there, aswell as Spain, who use Alonso. Pirlo and Gattuso, Scholes and Keane, Alonso and Mascherano, Xavi and Toure/Busquets, the list goes on and on.

Chelsea and United have actually been poorer this year than in most seasons recently, as evidenced by the unusually high amount of games that they lost and the fact that we didn't have an English representative in the Champions League final for the first time in a number of years. Yes, we played well against Ancellotti's men, with Osman in particular playing out of his skin, but I'd hardly say that we're at the level where we can outpass the big guns. They're strengthen over the summer and the status quo will no doubt be restored next season.

I'm still disputing Arteta playing infront of the back four. For that position to even work in our team our defenders would need to feed the ball into him rather than punting it aimlessly upfield. Of all his many skills I would argue that he's least regarded for his tackling. Why would you put him in a position where he will rarely be in range for a shot at goal and where his sublime skills will only buy him a yard of space in the middle of the park rather than in the opposition's danger area? Having him so deep is like Usain Bolt handing the baton over to Jan Molby for the home straight.

Most team's defend deep because they're afraid of losing and they have to rely on their ability to nick a goal because they lack creativity themselves. There have been occasions where we've played some neat football but, when the going gets tough, we very often run out of ideas and revert to type- playing the percentage balls from the back. It was the rule rather than the exception towards the end of the season for Saha to have only one or two chances per game. Hardly Barcelona, is it?!

Holland's midfield consists of Robben, Sneijder and Kuyt. Robben is direct, but he only has one foot. It's not that difficult to work out how to defend against him. Sneijder is a quality performer, I'll admit. Kuyt is industrious, but no more talented than Pienaar.

I could pick apart some of your examples. Pirlo and Gattuso/Scholes and Keane were the central pairings of four man midfields. Arteta has more to his game than Alonso. Arteta is capable of being as effective for us as Ozil has been for Germany or Sneijder for Holland. The player at the centre of the midfield three is the conductor. Gerrard does the same for Liverpool. We need our best player in the middle of things, where he can exert the most influence on the game.

 

[billycopper]

Dont think so mate!

True. Fellaini's pirouette when being pressured and harried by Bellamy shows how much he panics in possession, doesn't it?! ;-)

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Chelsea and United have actually been poorer this year than in most seasons recently, as evidenced by the unusually high amount of games that they lost and the fact that we didn't have an English representative in the Champions League final for the first time in a number of years. Yes, we played well against Ancellotti's men, with Osman in particular playing out of his skin, but I'd hardly say that we're at the level where we can outpass the big guns. They're strengthen over the summer and the status quo will no doubt be restored next season.

We beat and outplayed them, it's as simple as that, we have far more strings to our bow than we have in previous seasons and that was clear to see.

I'm still disputing Arteta playing infront of the back four. For that position to even work in our team our defenders would need to feed the ball into him rather than punting it aimlessly upfield. Of all his many skills I would argue that he's least regarded for his tackling. Why would you put him in a position where he will rarely be in range for a shot at goal and where his sublime skills will only buy him a yard of space in the middle of the park rather than in the opposition's danger area? Having him so deep is like Usain Bolt handing the baton over to Jan Molby for the home straight.

You speak about football like it's played on paper and every player sticks to one space. Real Football isn't like that, an out and out centre midfielder will more than likely cover every area of the pitch from penalty box to penalty box.

And forgetting whatever style of player Arteta is, that's exactly where I want him, in the middle of the park. So he can occupy many different areas of the pitch and yes, distributing in deeper positions is a massive part of that.

That doesn't mean he just stands in one spot for 90 minutes, football doesn't work like that. Even the most disciplined of defensive midfielders will find himself in different areas of the pitch.

Most team's defend deep because they're afraid of losing and they have to rely on their ability to nick a goal because they lack creativity themselves. There have been occasions where we've played some neat football but, when the going gets tough, we very often run out of ideas and revert to type- playing the percentage balls from the back. It was the rule rather than the exception towards the end of the season for Saha to have only one or two chances per game. Hardly Barcelona, is it?!

The better we have become in possession the more team's have dropped deeper and deeper during games at Goodison. We do revert to type, it's something we have to get away from, and having a player like Arteta in there makes all the difference.

Holland's midfield consists of Robben, Sneijder and Kuyt. Robben is direct, but he only has one foot. It's not that difficult to work out how to defend against him. Sneijder is a quality performer, I'll admit. Kuyt is industrious, but no more talented than Pienaar.

Robben is probably the three best winger in world football after Messi and Ronaldo, Sneijder is up there with the best attacking midfielders and Van Persie is a very complete striker, both creative and able to contribute in terms of goals.

I could pick apart some of your examples. Pirlo and Gattuso/Scholes and Keane were the central pairings of four man midfields. Arteta has more to his game than Alonso. Arteta is capable of being as effective for us as Ozil has been for Germany or Sneijder for Holland. The player at the centre of the midfield three is the conductor. Gerrard does the same for Liverpool. We need our best player in the middle of things, where he can exert the most influence on the game.

Exactly, and who do you think sees more of the ball, a wide player/attacking midfielder or an out and out centre midfielder? It's quite clearly an out and out centre mid, they are the ones who orchastrate the play most of the time, players like Sneijder and Ozil are final third men, those who open things up.

There's no difference to be honest, I'm mentioning a number of midfield partnerships that contain a playmaker and a defensive midfielder. Whether they line up in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2, it doesn't really matter.

 

[billycopper]

Midfield anchor is a disciplined position. If you want Arteta playing box to box there's no point in having him there.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Agreed, they just stand still in one spot for 90 minutes.

Great stuff.

 

[Dublintoff]

The judges have decided this contest a tie. Rematch to be announced at a later date.

Good points from both you lads, but you will never agree. My feeling on it is you could probably stick mikel in nets and he would still be our best player.

 

[Neiler]

Why dismiss either formation - who gives a stuff once we hammer the other team.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

It's basically the same formation, we just have different ideas on which players should occupy certain roles.

 

[Brownie]

Mikel Arteta has no limits. He's a true centre mid, he can do anything.