Holland

[ToxtethBlue]

It's not mate, Cahill plays just off the striker, he's basically a second striker nowadays, he challenges for headers and plays right up against the two centre backs. He's the closest thing we have to a target man.

http://vimeo.com/7819847

I've shown you this video before and for me it sums it Arteta's style more than anything, and he certainly isn't floating between advanced central and wide position, he's in the thick of the action, pulling the strings, dictating the tempo and keeping us on the front foot. And if you don't have this type of player your attacking players will become isolated and see little of the ball.

As for Heitinga, he's got an excellent passing range, no question about it, but he isn't quick enough on the ball and he doesn't possess great close control which is important in midfield. It's not all about 40 yard passes, short, intricate passing is the most important attribute, knitting things together, being agile is tight positions.

And he can push forward when needed, there's no rules that state a holding midfielder has to camp inside his own half all game. When we are in possession Arteta will move forward, and he does, as would Fellaini if needed. The best form of defence is retaining the ball and making opposition run and tire, and that's exactly what Arteta can do. I'd much rather see that personally, and that's why players like Xavi, Pirlo and Alonso are employed in these positions. They don't get pushed into advanced positions, and nor should they.

 

[Deleted member 28206]

Ballack would have occupied that role if he hadn't been injured. He's hardly a playmaker. I would love to have an allround player like Essien in that role but, given what we have available, I think that Fellaini and Heitinga are the men for the job. We've discussed Heitinga at centreback before and agreed that, with Jags and Heit both being under 6ft, we would be susceptible to high balls.

The three midfielders aren't restricted to staying in their respective positions. Arteta would be as free to roam as Robben for Holland and Muller for Germany. It would be great to have him in the middle, dictating play like Sneijder or Ozil, but I can't see Moyes dropping Cahill just yet.

I'm sure that Moyes has a masterplan that he's working to. If, in that scheme, Rodwell will establish himself as a centreback and Fellaini will be a holding midfielder, where will Heitinga play? In place of Jags? In place of Coleman? The manager does have a safety first approach, but his ultimate aim is to play attractive, flowing football. Our current system is defensively-minded and will need to be adapted for us to be more expansive.

For those who say that having two holding midfielders is negative, the top scorers in the tournament are Germany with 13 goals and Holland with 12 goals. Argentina have 10, Brazil 9, Portugal 7 and Spain 6. Germany have conceded as few goals as Spain (2), whilst scoring more than twice as many. Whereas Holland have let in the same number of goals as Brazil (4), but have scored a third more goals. Spain and Brazil have by far the greater talent man for man, but have been markedly less successful than the dutch and the germans. Why couldn't we enjoy the same success?

Outstanding post mate, are you John Motson in disguise?

 

[davek]

Good article on the current Dutch team here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jul/07/mark-van-bommel-holland-world-cup

The gist: they'll settle for winning ugly rather than being the traditional heroic failures.

 

[Axlswhk]

It's not mate, Cahill plays just off the striker, he's basically a second striker nowadays, he challenges for headers and plays right up against the two centre backs. He's the closest thing we have to a target man.

http://vimeo.com/7819847

I've shown you this video before and for me it sums it Arteta's style more than anything, and he certainly isn't floating between advanced central and wide position, he's in the thick of the action, pulling the strings, dictating the tempo and keeping us on the front foot. And if you don't have this type of player your attacking players will become isolated and see little of the ball.

As for Heitinga, he's got an excellent passing range, no question about it, but he isn't quick enough on the ball and he doesn't possess great close control which is important in midfield. It's not all about 40 yard passes, short, intricate passing is the most important attribute, knitting things together, being agile is tight positions.

And he can push forward when needed, there's no rules that state a holding midfielder has to camp inside his own half all game. When we are in possession Arteta will move forward, and he does, as would Fellaini if needed. The best form of defence is retaining the ball and making opposition run and tire, and that's exactly what Arteta can do. I'd much rather see that personally, and that's why players like Xavi, Pirlo and Alonso are employed in these positions. They don't get pushed into advanced positions, and nor should they.

Very much this. The best form of defense is to attack and hold onto possession. Every minute you spend holding onto the ball means another minute you don't need to worry about defending or conceding. Even with 11 Messi in your opposing team, they still can't do anything without the ball at their feet.
Not many people realize this theory, and choose to play tight and put man behind the ball and defend thinking it's the best way to play football.

 

[billycopper]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/jul/09/world-cup-2010-tactics-the-question

An interesting article discussing how 4-2-3-1 is the formation of the tournament. For me, because we have two of the best attacking full backs in the country (Coleman and Baines), I feel that we need extra protection to allow them to get forward at will. Sergio Ramos has been virtually playing as a winger for Spain. With Heitinga coming over to cover for the rightback, Coleman could afford to be just as adventurous, overlapping Arteta and getting the ball in from the byeline.

Cahill and Pienaar would be able to gamble on getting into the box with Saha, knowing that Fellaini would be behind them holding midfield.

 

[best little spaniard]

We would have no creativity.

Spain have Alonso, a very creative player, playing deep, keeping things ticking.


We have Arteta, a deep lying playmaker. Not an advanced playmaker like Pienaar is.

 

[billycopper]

We would have no creativity.

Spain have Alonso, a very creative player, playing deep, keeping things ticking.


We have Arteta, a deep lying playmaker. Not an advanced playmaker like Pienaar is.

_______Heitinga Fellaini
Coleman ____________Baines
_____Arteta Cahil Pienaar
__________Saha

Coleman and Baines would be flying down the wings, playing as wing backs. What other natural width do we have in the side? Pienaar comes inside onto his right foot. Osman has no pace. Bily is about as much use at beating a man as Kevin Sheedy was.

Last season Arteta made 16 starts, scoring 6 goals and providing 2 assists. Pienaar made 30 starts, scoring 4 goals and supplying 3 assists. Alonso made 33 starts, scoring 3 goals and laying on 4 assists. If Arteta had played as many games as Alonso then we might presume that he'd score 12 goals and provide 4 assists. If you could explain to me how Arteta managed to score 2 more league goals than Pienaar and only two fewer than Cahill, having started half as many matches as the Aussie, and playing infront of the back four I would be very glad to hear it!

 

[billycopper]

Even if you were correct that our natural formation is this:

___Arteta Fellaini
Osman Cahill Pienaar
______Saha

What happened when Arteta was out? Against City at home for example we had a midfield of Fellaini, Cahill, Donovan, Pienaar and Bily. Which one of those was the deep lying playmaker alongside Fella?! How did we manage to feed the ball into the middle of the park and dispose of Mancini's team without Arteta's creativity in that position?!

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Pienaar, another creative player, played alongside Fellaini during the City game with Donovan and Bilyaletdinov in wide positions and Cahill playing just off the front man. And whilst Pienaar wasn't playing exactly the same role as Arteta he was getting on the ball and having the same forward thinking approach from a more central position.

You need someone who's got that bit extra in possession really, someone who can hold onto the ball and distribute in tight spaces. Osman can do it, Pienaar can, and Arteta is the best we have by quite a distance.

 

[billycopper]

I think the crux of the matter is that you're saying this:

____________Fellaini
______Pienaar

Donovan _____________Bily

_______________Cahill
_________Saha

Whereas I'm saying this:

_________Fellaini

Donovan __Pienaar _____Bily
_______________Cahill

___________Saha

There isn't an awful lot in it. I'm saying that we're basically 4-1-4-1, with Cahill slightly more advanced. I think we play exactly the same way with Arteta in the side. Whether it's Arteta or Pienaar in the middle, they're able to pick the ball up off Fellaini or get up and support Saha. Cahill is able to push forward, but he also drops in to make a solid 4 man midfield. If Arteta was playing the Alonso role, alongside Fellaini rather than ahead of him, I still argue that he wouldn't have got into as many goalscoring positions as he did towards the end of the season. Arteta had a better strike rate than Cahill! He would need to be the world's best in that position to break up play, pass the ball from deep and then get in to the box to get on the end of things. No other 'deep lying playmaker' that we've mentioned has scored six goals all season, never mind in sixteen games. It doesn't stack up.

 

[billycopper]

As for Cahill's role, I'd call Berbatov, Gudjonsen or Arshavin a 'second striker'. That is someone who drops off from the attack to pick the ball up in the hole and seeks to break through the opposition defence. You wouldn't say that any of those players are particularly useful defensively in the midfield. Cahill is more of an 'advanced midfielder' like Lampard, Scholes or Ireland. He competes in the middle of the park and looks to break unnoticed into the box whenever the opportunity arises.

Going back to the way the dutch and the germans use the 4-2-3-1 system, I suppose the nearest comparisons are Muller and Kuyt. We could play him on the right of the three, with Arteta doing the job of Ozil or Sneijder. I thought the midfield had more symmetry with Cahill being flanked by Arteta and Pienaar though.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Lets be realistic here, actual football isn't played like that, players don't stand still in one area all game, a centre midfielder will more than likely cover every area of the pitch, certainly in central areas, from penalty box to penalty box, even a defensive/deep lying midfielder. So whilst a centre midfielder will have a certain role in the team that doesn't mean he sticks to one position for 90 minutes. Fellaini doesn't even play a fixed position, he gets into the box on occasion and looks to get on the end of things.

Xabi Alonso probably isn't the best comparison, his attacking game isn't great, but there are players like Xavi, Scholes and Pirlo who have adaptable games, players who can control in the middle of the park and create things in the attacking third, and they don't need to be played in advanced midfield positions to do so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6AbyB2XQec

That's the perfect example really, that's how Arteta performs for me, in terms of style. He controls our play and he chooses his moments when to attack and create in advanced positions, he has that freedom, the position he plays is where everything happens. You do a bit of everything. But a major part of his role is about dropping deep, taking the ball and making that first pass, it's vital really, it cuts out alot of aimless hoofs and the fact that our defenders trust him in possession helps.

And lets not forget that alot of Arteta's assists and goals come from set pieces, he's not a goalscorer, far from it, and a little purple patch doesn't change that. At best he'll get you 10 goals a season and he's can do that in the position he's playing.

 

[Neiler]

Its an intresting one and a postive debate, for once we have options in the sqaud for the manager i dont think its definitive by any means and im sure Moyes will use variations of the system in different games depending on the opposition. I think there is value in the Heit and Fellaini playing together deeper. I wouldnt class Fellaini as a DM hes more box to box, additionaly he put in the best and most commanding central midfeild performence for me for 20 years agaisnt City at home last season to be able to that at his age is phenomnal. We all know Arteta is amazing in that deep lying role, but i still think he could be as effective futher up the pitch in more of the role Fabergas plays for Arsenal. Hes often plays with Denilson and Biaby behind him.

Personaly i like the Heit more as a DM then a centre half, the majority dont so im open to correction on that one - im just not as convinced of his performences at centre half as i am in the middle where i think hes more effective - despite his success at the WC his performences havent convinced me otherwise. The other variable is we then have Cahill and Rodwell as well who will be unhappy without game time. Cahill who has proven he can score double figures for us and lets face has proven he can be a match winner, while Rodwell in the last part of the season has proved hes a very dangerous player breaking from deep - as he always has been playing with his peers at his age level.

A lot of option and i dont think their is one definitve way we will play or system we will use it will be governed by injuries and opposition. I do think a lot of teams will line up with two defensively minded midfeilder next season the likes of Wolves, Brum, Stoke, Blackburn etc - the teams we really struggled against last season to break down. Its important we respond in kind and be able to match them but at the same time prove we can break down two deep banks of four or a five four - we lost al ot of points last season because we couldnt.

You also have to look at our solidity as a team last season, we conceaded far more golas then in other seasons, which is something we should be looking to massively improve on.

 

[Dublintoff]

Its an intresting one and a postive debate, for once we have options in the sqaud for the manager i dont think its definitive by any means and im sure Moyes will use variations of the system in different games depending on the opposition. I think there is value in the Heit and Fellaini playing together deeper. I wouldnt class Fellaini as a DM hes more box to box, additionaly he put in the best and most commanding central midfeild performence for me for 20 years agaisnt City at home last season to be able to that at his age is phenomnal. We all know Arteta is amazing in that deep lying role, but i still think he could be as effective futher up the pitch in more of the role Fabergas plays for Arsenal. Hes often plays with Denilson and Biaby behind him.

Personaly i like the Heit more as a DM then a centre half, the majority dont so im open to correction on that one - im just not as convinced of his performences at centre half as i am in the middle where i think hes more effective - despite his success at the WC his performences havent convinced me otherwise. The other variable is we then have Cahill and Rodwell as well who will be unhappy without game time. Cahill who has proven he can score double figures for us and lets face has proven he can be a match winner, while Rodwell in the last part of the season has proved hes a very dangerous player breaking from deep - as he always has been playing with his peers at his age level.

A lot of option and i dont think their is one definitve way we will play or system we will use it will be governed by injuries and opposition. I do think a lot of teams will line up with two defensively minded midfeilder next season the likes of Wolves, Brum, Stoke, Blackburn etc - the teams we really struggled against last season to break down. Its important we respond in kind and be able to match them but at the same time prove we can break down two deep banks of four or a five four - we lost al ot of points last season because we couldnt.

You also have to look at our solidity as a team last season, we conceaded far more golas then in other seasons, which is something we should be looking to massively improve on.

I agree but i would put a lot of that down to injuries in the backline. We had a load of different variations at centre half especially, which in previous seasons where we didnt ship too many goals and were regarded as being tight at the back, we had more consistency in our pairings.

Distin said it himself the other day that he found it tough striking a partnership. He would have potentially played with Yobo, Jags, Heitinga, Senderos, Neville and Duffy last season. It cant help.

 

[billycopper]

I think we're all getting closer to being in agreement. It fits my argument that Arteta did hit a rich vein of goalscoring form towards the end of the season. It's not something that we've previously seen from him. I think it should be encouraged though. I think Cahill's effectiveness infront of goal will start to wane over the next couple of seasons. We will need to replace those goals from midfield. Let's see if Mikel can be a 10-15 goal a season man.

The thing that appeals to me about playing Heitinga and Fellaini in tandem is that most opposition midfielders will be intimidated from the kick off, giving us an immediate advantage.

I'm all for having a fluid, interchangeable system. In the formation that I'm suggesting Coleman and Baines would be wingbacks, because of the cover offered by the two holding midfielders. Similarly, Arteta and Pienaar could roam from left to right, up and down because their defensive duties will be taken care of. As long as we don't overcommit, either Heitinga or Fellaini could look to get forward too from time to time. If we're going to make full use of Coleman and Baines as an attacking outlet, I think this is the only formation that we could use. When Heitinga has been in there on his own he's been overstretched. It hasn't helped that he has ambitions on getting forward too.

I would like to see us have a 'plan b' to adapt to different scenarios. If we're playing a lesser team or chasing the game, we could lose one of the anchors and throw another striker on. Whenever we've done that in the past it has looked like an act of desperation rather than something that has been worked on at the training ground.