Howard's Way

[Duncan’s Pigeon Loft]

One thing that always bemuses me is why didn't Kendall get the England job after leaving the first time?

Of course Sir Bobby Robson stuck around until 1990 but even then Kendall was still seen as top level manager and was only early 40s.

Taylor had done well at Watford and Villa but hadn't won anything and he played far more percentage football which was always going to be exposed at international level.

Perhaps the FA had word of drinking issues which obviously would've been a problem with Gascoigne around. Pretty sure Joe Royle was also linked with the England job in 1996.

They touched on this on Toffee TV a while back. The likes of Kendall and Clough where clearly mavericks and ‘did their own thing’, which the FA wouldn’t have liked. As I said above it was before my time but just reading about both Clough and HK and watching interviews by them and comments from players played under them they where clearly charismatic characters and would let toe the line. What both Kendall and Clough did with odds stacked massively stacked against them was incredible - Clough with two ‘unfashionable’ clubs and Kendall was up against city rivals who where the best in Europe for the previous ten years or so. Clough is - rightly - swooned over by the press. But I don’t think Kendall gets anywhere near enough the praise he deserves. One of the greatest managers of all time surely .

 

[Blue peter]

They touched on this on Toffee TV a while back. The likes of Kendall and Clough where clearly mavericks and ‘did their own thing’, which the FA wouldn’t have liked. As I said above it was before my time but just reading about both Clough and HK and watching interviews by them and comments from players played under them they where clearly charismatic characters and would let toe the line. What both Kendall and Clough did with odds stacked massively stacked against them was incredible - Clough with two ‘unfashionable’ clubs and Kendall was up against city rivals who where the best in Europe for the previous ten years or so. Clough is - rightly - swooned over by the press. But I don’t think Kendall gets anywhere near enough the praise he deserves. One of the greatest managers of all time surely .

I know this goes against the grain, but whilst HK was great from 1984 to 1987, beyond that he did nothing other than fashioned a decent Man City side before he returned to us for a second spell. He is not one of the greatest of all time in my opinion, to many managers in front to have that accolade bestowed on him but definitely that GOAT for us.

 

[Drico]

Ladies and gentlemen I present evidence to the contrary in the form of Real Madrid. As close to a state sponsored home team as you can get.

You're at the wrong court case, so. We've all since long agreed that there is lots of this in western Europe now. Where there is a point of discussion is that some of us have been pointing out that it was always as bad as it is now - and some of us have been saying it was a lot more competitive in the past. Even if this court decides to accept your point, the "state sponsoring" of Real Madrid in the 1970s and 1980s still didn't stop Real Socieded and Athletic Bilbao from winning four leagues in a row. On the fifth year, Barcelona won it. In the 1970s, there were also titles for Valencia (1) and Atletico Madrid (3). In summary, that state sponsoring in the 1970s and 1980s was as effective as the Spanish coup d'etat.

 

[Duncan’s Pigeon Loft]

I know this goes against the grain, but whilst HK was great from 1984 to 1987, beyond that he did nothing other than fashioned a decent Man City side before he returned to us for a second spell. He is not one of the greatest of all time in my opinion, to many managers in front to have that accolade bestowed on him but definitely that GOAT for us.

I respect your opinion as you was obviously around to witness those years - I was born early ‘87, I can at least say we won the league in my lifetime!

I only remember properly his third spell in 97/98, which was similar to the season we’ve just had . No money, selling players and not replacing them etc. also there was a lot of talk about his personal problems he had at that time.

Maybe not in the Ferguson, Ancelotti, Paisley, busby bracket. But I think it’s often underestimated what he did here in his first spell - our city rivals winning everything in sight while we were in a massive decline from the catterick era…. He had a mountain to climb and he did it. As I say , I wasn’t around, but I don’t think it should be underestimated the task he had in overhauling that Liverpool team , whom , as much as we loathe them are rightly regarded as one of the greatest ever. I even know reds who say that our midfield the best they’d ever seen.

Possibly just below Ferguson , Ancelotti , Paisley etc…. But I don’t think his achievements get anywhere near the credit they deserve in the football media. The crazy gang, for example, get talked about a lot more

 

[Blue peter]

I respect your opinion as you was obviously around to witness those years - I was born early ‘87, I can at least say we won the league in my lifetime!

I only remember properly his third spell in 97/98, which was similar to the season we’ve just had . No money, selling players and not replacing them etc. also there was a lot of talk about his personal problems he had at that time.

Maybe not in the Ferguson, Ancelotti, Paisley, busby bracket. But I think it’s often underestimated what he did here in his first spell - our city rivals winning everything in sight while we were in a massive decline from the catterick era…. He had a mountain to climb and he did it. As I say , I wasn’t around, but I don’t think it should be underestimated the task he had in overhauling that Liverpool team , whom , as much as we loathe them are rightly regarded as one of the greatest ever. I even know reds who say that our midfield the best they’d ever seen.

Possibly just below Ferguson , Ancelotti , Paisley etc…. But I don’t think his achievements get anywhere near the credit they deserve in the football media. The crazy gang, for example, get talked about a lot more

Yes fair points. What he did in that first period of success particularly against the backdrop of fan unrest in the eighteen months leading up to the Milk Cup Final and in light of Liverpool’s dominance was absolutely to be applauded. I just look at those years in the context of the rest of his career and he think he may have been able to do much more.

Greatest managers of all time for me, are multiplie title winners over lengthened periods of (e.g. Ferguson) or having come back from insurmountable odds (Busby) or winning with multiple clubs - everyone one of us could have a different view on that. The ban in Europe destroyed us, but other managers stayed in the UK e.g. Ferguson moved to Man Utd despite the ban, Graham went to Arsenal and Dog leash stayed at them lot - all of these managers went in to win the league.

I always wonder why HK chose to leave in 87. He could have stayed and built a dynasty to combat the one Liverpool had built and hopefully he could have then been mentioned as one of the greatest of all time, but for me sadly as he chose to leave and his subsequent career wasn’t great. I wonder whether he had the confidence in himself to do this or whether he had escalated his drinking by that time. For the reasons above I think he forfeits being in greatest managers of all time list which is sad.

 

[Duncan’s Pigeon Loft]

Yes fair points. What he did in that first period of success particularly against the backdrop of fan unrest in the eighteen months leading up to the Milk Cup Final and in light of Liverpool’s dominance was absolutely to be applauded. I just look at those years in the context of the rest of his career and he think he may have been able to do much more.

Greatest managers of all time for me, are multiplie title winners over lengthened periods of (e.g. Ferguson) or having come back from insurmountable odds (Busby) or winning with multiple clubs - everyone one of us could have a different view on that. The ban in Europe destroyed us, but other managers stayed in the UK e.g. Ferguson moved to Man Utd despite the ban, Graham went to Arsenal and Dog leash stayed at them lot - all of these managers went in to win the league.

I always wonder why HK chose to leave in 87. He could have stayed and built a dynasty to combat the one Liverpool had built and hopefully he could have then been mentioned as one of the greatest of all time, but for me sadly as he chose to leave and his subsequent career wasn’t great. I wonder whether he had the confidence in himself to do this or whether he had escalated his drinking by that time. For the reasons above I think he forfeits being in greatest managers of all time list which is sad.

Yes and it the risk of repeating myself , I wasn’t old enough in 87 but Ive always thought “why not just stick it out and keep building for when we where allowed back in Europe”? As you say , Utd , Liverpool , Forest etc kept their managers. And Bilbao whilst a great club are not Barca , Real etc. I wonder if he regretted leaving? We’ll never know. The European ban was obviously a massive kick in the balls. But other clubs where also affected and didn’t decline as rapidly as we did. Re. His city spell , a lot of their fans where of the opinion that he could have replicated what he did here 84-87. But who knows, maybe his personal problems had clouded him too much at that point. On a side note I always wondered why we didn’t go for Clough once Kendall left, he’d surely achieved all he could at Forest ?

 

[Blue peter]

Yes and it the risk of repeating myself , I wasn’t old enough in 87 but Ive always thought “why not just stick it out and keep building for when we where allowed back in Europe”? As you say , Utd , Liverpool , Forest etc kept their managers. And Bilbao whilst a great club are not Barca , Real etc. I wonder if he regretted leaving? We’ll never know. The European ban was obviously a massive kick in the balls. But other clubs where also affected and didn’t decline as rapidly as we did. Re. His city spell , a lot of their fans where of the opinion that he could have replicated what he did here 84-87. But who knows, maybe his personal problems had clouded him too much at that point. On a side note I always wondered why we didn’t go for Clough once Kendall left, he’d surely achieved all he could at Forest ?

It was a strange one with Clouh because for all he had achieved in the game, the only speculation I could ever remember about him was with the England job. I don’t recall at that time any speculation about any other club jobs. I can only think that it may have been that his no nonsense approach put prospective employers off.

 

[CrustySack]

I know this goes against the grain, but whilst HK was great from 1984 to 1987, beyond that he did nothing other than fashioned a decent Man City side before he returned to us for a second spell. He is not one of the greatest of all time in my opinion, to many managers in front to have that accolade bestowed on him but definitely that GOAT for us.

Howard and that Everton side he assembled never got the chance to become truly great. They had the rug pulled firmly from beneath them thanks to the European ban, and Howard and Everton were never able to get over it. Howard went to Bilbao in 87 where his drinking became an issue. The Everton side broke up. By the time Howard returned to England he just wasn't the same manager/person.

 

[Davideeyore]

Howard and that Everton side he assembled never got the chance to become truly great. They had the rug pulled firmly from beneath them thanks to the European ban, and Howard and Everton were never able to get over it. Howard went to Bilbao in 87 where his drinking became an issue. The Everton side broke up. By the time Howard returned to England he just wasn't the same manager/person.

Well put.

I don't know about the personal side for HK but he wasn't the same manager when he came back this is after managing Citeh as well. But neither were Everton not just the break up of his side but the club itself. Those interim years whilst Harvey was in charge, the club took its foot off the pedal. Instead of building on the success of the 80's as a club I mean not just on the pitch, but off it, we lowered standards and drifted. It's the beginning of what we have today as a football club.
I would point the finger at a number of people for not taking Everton on to the next level as a club. We rested on our laurels. We had the impudence to step back and do nothing. Just exist. We're Everton, we play at Goodison, we've won the league 9 times. Dixie Dean scored 60 in one season. Wallowing in history and not moving forward. This is the way. The "peoples club". Bill Kenwright, no bigger blue than him. Well look at us now. How far can a club drift?

So many what if's. What if Kendall stayed? What if the ban never included us? What if Kenwright didn't become chairman?

 

[Trublue12]

Obviously as an Evertonian of 50 years old, that team from 84-87 were my heros and it meant so much to me. As it was The only time I have seen success of team iny life. But it was so long a go and we should let it go now Really sad saying it but it only puts more pressure and lack of realism on what we have now.

 

[CrustySack]

Well put.

I don't know about the personal side for HK but he wasn't the same manager when he came back this is after managing Citeh as well. But neither were Everton not just the break up of his side but the club itself. Those interim years whilst Harvey was in charge, the club took its foot off the pedal. Instead of building on the success of the 80's as a club I mean not just on the pitch, but off it, we lowered standards and drifted. It's the beginning of what we have today as a football club.
I would point the finger at a number of people for not taking Everton on to the next level as a club. We rested on our laurels. We had the impudence to step back and do nothing. Just exist. We're Everton, we play at Goodison, we've won the league 9 times. Dixie Dean scored 60 in one season. Wallowing in history and not moving forward. This is the way. The "peoples club". Bill Kenwright, no bigger blue than him. Well look at us now. How far can a club drift?

So many what if's. What if Kendall stayed? What if the ban never included us? What if Kenwright didn't become chairman?

Spot on.

For the younger ones, Howard and that Everton side were regarded as being well ahead of their time, especially in terms of playing a high line, pressing in numbers and the speed in transistion. Sides just couldn't cope with them. They could play on the deck and in the air.

If you then factor in that they had leaders all over the pitch, the best goalkeeper in the world, one of the best crossers of a ball and free-kick taker and forwards who could all finish, then you can only begin to imagine what a force they were.

They were a young side as well with years ahead of them. They were primed to dominate English and European football for years to come and they knew it. Everybody knew it. And then it was all taken away in just one evening. It was beyond cruel.

 

[Duncan’s Pigeon Loft]

Obviously as an Evertonian of 50 years old, that team from 84-87 were my heros and it meant so much to me. As it was The only time I have seen success of team iny life. But it was so long a go and we should let it go now Really sad saying it but it only puts more pressure and lack of realism on what we have now.

Yes and no there mate. I think it should be celebrated - even reds acknowledge what a great team we had. Maybe we do dwell on it, but from everything I’ve read or heard about those times, it sounds like we where in a similar position to where we are now when Kendall came in. We should let that team be an inspiration . Show ‘Howard’s Way’ to every new signing. Whatever, we need to look towards building the club to get back to those days. It’ll be hard but it’s possible

 

[Blue peter]

Howard and that Everton side he assembled never got the chance to become truly great. They had the rug pulled firmly from beneath them thanks to the European ban, and Howard and Everton were never able to get over it. Howard went to Bilbao in 87 where his drinking became an issue. The Everton side broke up. By the time Howard returned to England he just wasn't the same manager/person.

Don’t disagree, just think it’s a shame that other top managers stayed in England and subsequently won the league whereas HK went after his second title win and I think that was a big influence in our subsequent decline - the root cause was the ban, but we did not react to it spin the same way other managers or clubs did.

 

[Blue peter]

Yes and no there mate. I think it should be celebrated - even reds acknowledge what a great team we had. Maybe we do dwell on it, but from everything I’ve read or heard about those times, it sounds like we where in a similar position to where we are now when Kendall came in. We should let that team be an inspiration . Show ‘Howard’s Way’ to every new signing. Whatever, we need to look towards building the club to get back to those days. It’ll be hard but it’s possible

It was interesting in the documentary. Mountfield was watching us in the Middle East, two geordies were there, and one recited the team player for player and said we were the best club side he ever saw play. It was - but despite that and due to a number of factors, we only won four trophies in that period of dominance. Whilst we will alway recall that team with fond memories, unfortunately with the general population, it seems to have become a distant memory. Chelsea have arguably been more successful now in trophy haul over a longer period of time (over different teams) as have Man City. Man Utd went on to win the treble, as have City. It’s the modern game, it was always financially driven to a point but the Clubs that have became or have become the nouveau riche (Chelsea/City) have had super success which as surpassed ours. Back in our hey day only three or four clubs had done the double, now about six or seven have…..and some of them have done it three times. Our success back then I think becomes more important to us with each passing year because of how unsuccessful we have been in the following years…..it’s just not looked at in the same light by the broader football community which is a shame.

 

[Paul Rideout]

You're at the wrong court case, so. We've all since long agreed that there is lots of this in western Europe now. Where there is a point of discussion is that some of us have been pointing out that it was always as bad as it is now - and some of us have been saying it was a lot more competitive in the past. Even if this court decides to accept your point, the "state sponsoring" of Real Madrid in the 1970s and 1980s still didn't stop Real Socieded and Athletic Bilbao from winning four leagues in a row. On the fifth year, Barcelona won it. In the 1970s, there were also titles for Valencia (1) and Atletico Madrid (3). In summary, that state sponsoring in the 1970s and 1980s was as effective as the Spanish coup d'etat.

Go back to the 50s - Franco’s Madrid.