2018/19 Idrissa Gueye

[CRIMHEAD]

Listen, I've said, the argument for and against the stats are meaningless, they tell you what they tell you. I am capable of watching full games and forming an opinion without looking at stats. And passing stats can be misleading. A completed pass is 1 that leaves Gueye and is taken by another player. A completed pass can still be a poor pass. Christ, people Criticise Niasse for scoring "Bad" Goals.

But you keep regurgitating the same tired old stats about his personal contributions to a game.

Tell me this, seen as I am judging by your name that you are a fan. If someone told you that Robert Fripp wasn't as good a guitarist as say, Noel Gallagher, because Noel Gallagher had more hits in less time and fewer albums, would you just accept that?

I have watched Gueye for us now for almost 3 years and haven't been impressed with what I've seen. He has been in this league for 4 years and, in my eyes, has failed to make an impact in any of the sides he's played in, other than to bolster his own personal stats in teams that have not been improved by his presence. Kante, on the other hand, in the same time, has won the league twice with different teams and won a world Cup, achievements that supplement his stats, his stats do not define him.

We will never agree on this because we are quite clearly seeing different things, whether that is things we want to see or not is another argument.

And for the Record, King Crimson are awesome.

The Fripp arguement is really more about style, though. Now if someone argues he’s faster or more technical, that’s more of a discussion. Some here hate Sigurdsson because he doesn’t hold on to the ball or hate Gana because he doesn’t spray passes all over the pitch. That doesn’t mean they are bad, but some posters can’t tell the difference.p or get over it.

Look, I’m not in love with stats, but I’m clearly seeing something differently than you. He’s the most important player on our team and we’d stink without him. But that’s not even what the post was about. It was more specific about him losing the ball. The stats seem to validate what I’m seeing. It’s not the other way around. I don’t see a guy giving it away, losing possession, especially in a side that’s poor at it. I look at the stats based on what I’m seeing and they validate what I’m seeing. It would be one thing is statistically it seemed neutral, but it’s pretty dramatic. If they didn’t validate what I’m seeing, I would certainly be questioning my own judgement.

I’m also not saying he’s Kante, Kante is much more dynamic going forward, I’m not saying he’s world class. I’m not saying he’s a creator and even a great passer. However, I am saying it’s not his role. I am also saying some of the criticism of Gana isn’t real or correct. In particular, this idea that he gives the ball away is a complete myth.

 

[CRIMHEAD]

So who are all the others linked then?

Doucoure, Ndombele.

 

[flo_psg]

Ndombele not really, that would be next summer and Aulas wants >80M€. But we'll spend that money on De Jong then no Tanguy in Paris.
Doucouré has been linked but he told himself last week-end that he's far from the top of the club's list.
Players that came up the most in rumours are (unordered) : Weigl, Gueye, Doucouré and Paredes.

 

[Nymzee]

Does that last till May?

He'd not be inline to go straight into the first 11 at Dortmund anyway I would have thought, he's a kid, new to the league and country, but they moved the transfer forward to now, rather than the summer to be depth in the squad, which he will be from mid Feb (or earlier) when the U20's finish.

Yeh just saying now you don't really have any CB's.

Diallo played a half, Akanji out, Zagadou out, Toprak out.

Gonna be a barely fit Diallo and Weigl isn't it.

 

[Kever10]

The Fripp arguement is really more about style, though. Now if someone argues he’s faster or more technical, that’s more of a discussion. Some here hate Sigurdsson because he doesn’t hold on to the ball or hate Gana because he doesn’t spray passes all over the pitch. That doesn’t mean they are bad, but some posters can’t tell the difference.p or get over it.

Look, I’m not in love with stats, but I’m clearly seeing something differently than you. He’s the most important player on our team and we’d stink without him. But that’s not even what the post was about. It was more specific about him losing the ball. The stats seem to validate what I’m seeing. It’s not the other way around. I don’t see a guy giving it away, losing possession, especially in a side that’s poor at it. I look at the stats based on what I’m seeing and they validate what I’m seeing. It would be one thing is statistically it seemed neutral, but it’s pretty dramatic. If they didn’t validate what I’m seeing, I would certainly be questioning my own judgement.

I’m also not saying he’s Kante, Kante is much more dynamic going forward, I’m not saying he’s world class. I’m not saying he’s a creator and even a great passer. However, I am saying it’s not his role. I am also saying some of the criticism of Gana isn’t real or correct. In particular, this idea that he gives the ball away is a complete myth.

I guess that's where the difference in opinion comes from, because I have watched him and have never really been over struck or impressed with his style, his ability, his role, and have frequently come away with the impression he is simply a hard working, average midfield player that doesn't stand out in any way. Only to be met with others opinions of how he is "A Joy to watch", and "the best midfielder/defensive mid in the league", all backed up with his personal stats.

Now as you say, stats should only support the whole picture, not form it, and as I've pointed out, some of these stats can be very misleading. Not that I can't or don't understand them, I am well aware when 1 number is bigger than another, and like I also said, there is no doubting that his numbers in certain areas have been high. But I question the circumstances around the stats, the overall performance and how important those figures are in assessing his true worth.

Phil Neville would regularly come out on top of our passing stats, even while playing in the same teams as your Arteta's, Pienaar's, and Baines's. But that didn't tell the whole story.

In the case of Gueye, he has consistently achieved these outstanding personal stats while playing in teams that have consistently been poor. At what point do you start to look past the fact he has so many completed tackles so is therefore infallible, and ask why the teams he performs in never actually improve?

I've had my season ticket now for 22 years, and in that time, I've witnessed the whole spectrum of different types and styles of midfield player we have had, and also a wide variation in quality too. And in my opinion, you would have to go some way down that list before you get to Gueye.

I just do not believe that we would see the total catastrophic failure to perform as a team without him that you and others seem to suggest.

I guess the only way we will find out is if/when he is no longer here.

 

[Borussin]

Yeh just saying now you don't really have any CB's.

Diallo played a half, Akanji out, Zagadou out, Toprak out.

Gonna be a barely fit Diallo and Weigl isn't it.

this weekend you would think yeh! ALthough Zagadou isn't far off now, and at least Akanji doesn't need surgery, as was first feared. But yes, letting Weigl go before Zagadou is back at least would make little sense. That's the thing really as much as he may want to leave, Dortmund don't need to allow it. He does have 2 years left on his contract, so they can do this in the summer. But still 13 days left of the transfer window for PSG to try!

 

[Nymzee]

this weekend you would think yeh! ALthough Zagadou isn't far off now, and at least Akanji doesn't need surgery, as was first feared. But yes, letting Weigl go before Zagadou is back at least would make little sense. That's the thing really as much as he may want to leave, Dortmund don't need to allow it. He does have 2 years left on his contract, so they can do this in the summer. But still 13 days left of the transfer window for PSG to try!

I just can't see PSG wanting Gana myself unless they're watching Kante and thinking it's some cheat code to winning stuff. Losing Rabiot and replacing him with Gana is such a bizarre replacement whereas Weigl and Rabiot are very similar (minus the ability to dribble).

Just go sign Elvedi I reckon for you lot.

 

[Stephenlloyd]

Doucoure, Ndombele.

Doucoure isn’t s defensive midfielder

 

[Borussin]

I just can't see PSG wanting Gana myself unless they're watching Kante and thinking it's some cheat code to winning stuff. Losing Rabiot and replacing him with Gana is such a bizarre replacement whereas Weigl and Rabiot are very similar (minus the ability to dribble).

Just go sign Elvedi I reckon for you lot.

This is the thing, with gana and Weigl, they are just unsimilar players! So I don't quite get if PSG see it as a choice between the 2 - it's like they are after two completly different profiles. I can imagine that Weigl is very intersting to them, but I hope Dortmund make it tough for them. I don't know the whole story with FFP and PSG, other than it seems they can not spend a lot on one player now. Even though Weigl is not a first choice for Dortmund, he's still young and is still a good player, and there is no need to do PSG favours by letting him go for cut price.

Elvedi is a nice player! Not sure what BVB will do with central defenders in the summer, Toprak still has a couple years left on his deal. I think maybe the idea is to stick with having one senior one like him, although upgrading on him would be a nice idea.

 

[flo_psg]

Doucoure isn’t s defensive midfielder

He said last week-end that it's his favourite spot.

 

[Lanolin]

I guess that's where the difference in opinion comes from, because I have watched him and have never really been over struck or impressed with his style, his ability, his role, and have frequently come away with the impression he is simply a hard working, average midfield player that doesn't stand out in any way. Only to be met with others opinions of how he is "A Joy to watch", and "the best midfielder/defensive mid in the league", all backed up with his personal stats.

Now as you say, stats should only support the whole picture, not form it, and as I've pointed out, some of these stats can be very misleading. Not that I can't or don't understand them, I am well aware when 1 number is bigger than another, and like I also said, there is no doubting that his numbers in certain areas have been high. But I question the circumstances around the stats, the overall performance and how important those figures are in assessing his true worth.

Phil Neville would regularly come out on top of our passing stats, even while playing in the same teams as your Arteta's, Pienaar's, and Baines's. But that didn't tell the whole story.

In the case of Gueye, he has consistently achieved these outstanding personal stats while playing in teams that have consistently been poor. At what point do you start to look past the fact he has so many completed tackles so is therefore infallible, and ask why the teams he performs in never actually improve?

I've had my season ticket now for 22 years, and in that time, I've witnessed the whole spectrum of different types and styles of midfield player we have had, and also a wide variation in quality too. And in my opinion, you would have to go some way down that list before you get to Gueye.

I just do not believe that we would see the total catastrophic failure to perform as a team without him that you and others seem to suggest.

I guess the only way we will find out is if/when he is no longer here.

You make some good points but I think it's unfair to suggest that Gana can't be good because we haven't got any better since he signed. Southampton didn't get any better after signing Van Dijk, but many people now say he's a shoe in for pretty much all the POTY awards and possibly the best centre half in the world. More than one person on here has told me - in different discussions - that he is single handedly responsible for Liverpool's defensive record. The rest of them are no good apparently, it's just him, so why didn't Southampton only concede once a month or whatever? Is Pogba no good because he hasn't taken United back to the top? It's a team game, and our team isn't very good. Personally I think Gana is one of our better players, and i'd be sorry to see him go, but he's not irreplaceable and I agree that losing him needn't mean we completely implode.

 

[BlueToff]

You make some good points but I think it's unfair to suggest that Gana can't be good because we haven't got any better since he signed. Southampton didn't get any better after signing Van Dijk, but many people now say he's a shoe in for pretty much all the POTY awards and possibly the best centre half in the world. More than one person on here has told me - in different discussions - that he is single handedly responsible for Liverpool's defensive record. The rest of them are no good apparently, it's just him, so why didn't Southampton only concede once a month or whatever? Is Pogba no good because he hasn't taken United back to the top? It's a team game, and our team isn't very good. Personally I think Gana is one of our better players, and i'd be sorry to see him go, but he's not irreplaceable and I agree that losing him needn't mean we completely implode.

I agree with this as well.

But, the timing has to be right. And I really don't see the timing being right at the moment.

1) Season's in the balance. We can still achieve something, relatively speaking, in the league, and we can still have a dig at the cup.
2) We'd have to change our system, because at the moment it's abundantly clear that having Gana and Gomes in their ties our current system together.
3) We'd need a guaranteed quality replacement who can slot straight in and they just aren't likely to be available this month.

 

[devlinadl]

This is the thing, with gana and Weigl, they are just unsimilar players! So I don't quite get if PSG see it as a choice between the 2 - it's like they are after two completly different profiles. I can imagine that Weigl is very intersting to them, but I hope Dortmund make it tough for them. I don't know the whole story with FFP and PSG, other than it seems they can not spend a lot on one player now. Even though Weigl is not a first choice for Dortmund, he's still young and is still a good player, and there is no need to do PSG favours by letting him go for cut price.

Elvedi is a nice player! Not sure what BVB will do with central defenders in the summer, Toprak still has a couple years left on his deal. I think maybe the idea is to stick with having one senior one like him, although upgrading on him would be a nice idea.

Allegedly, BVB have made Weigl available for 25m euros...

 

[Charles Hawtrey]

Yeh just saying now you don't really have any CB's.

Diallo played a half, Akanji out, Zagadou out, Toprak out.

Gonna be a barely fit Diallo and Weigl isn't it.

Tried Google translate - nuthin'

 

[Borussin]

Allegedly, BVB have made Weigl available for 25m euros...

€25-30m was what I saw quoted the other week, so sounds about right! Still, waiting till the summer makes more sense, things are going very very well this season, but it only takes 2 or 3 more injuries to create a problem.