International managers, what nationality should they be

[daz4matty]

Settled then an indian england manager

 

[GhostOfDixie]

Now its starting to piss me off now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/7143259.stm

All these Englishman, saying the job should have gone to an englishman. Ince says there are plenty of Englishman who can do just as good a job, yet he fails to put any possible names forward.

Tony Adams did the same, as did Steve Coppell.

Be interested to see if Ince picks non English people for MK Dons.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm not sure the two are related Ghost. You can't select foreign players for the English national team, it should be a representation of the best a particular nation has to offer, and in my opinion that includes coaches as well as players.

Clubs are a different kettle of fish and should run a strict meritocracy and select players/coaches based on their ability, not their nationality.

We have a similar problem with the coaches as we do with players. The Champions League regulars havn't had an English manager since the days of Roy Evans and George Graham. Now this could well be that English coaches simply aren't very good, I'm happy to concede that.

If they are good enough however there does appear to be a lack of English coaches competing in European football. Assuming that English coaches have ambition, and assuming that the top four will continue to select from abroad, how many are prepared to coach abroad themselves? Chris Coleman is trying his luck in Spain at the moment and Ince has stated his desire to coach Inter one day but perhaps the English coaches need to take a leaf out of their foreign counterparts, in that if opportunities don't exist at home, you go anywhere where they do exist. I'm inclined to think that it's easier for a Paul Jewell type manager to accept the big bucks at a no hoper club like Derby than to try his hand at a better placed club abroad.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

I'm not sure the two are related Ghost. You can't select foreign players for the English national team, it should be a representation of the best a particular nation has to offer, and in my opinion that includes coaches as well as players.

Clubs are a different kettle of fish and should run a strict meritocracy and select players/coaches based on their ability, not their nationality.

We have a similar problem with the coaches as we do with players. The Champions League regulars havn't had an English manager since the days of Roy Evans and George Graham. Now this could well be that English coaches simply aren't very good, I'm happy to concede that.

If they are good enough however there does appear to be a lack of English coaches competing in European football. Assuming that English coaches have ambition, and assuming that the top four will continue to select from abroad, how many are prepared to coach abroad themselves? Chris Coleman is trying his luck in Spain at the moment and Ince has stated his desire to coach Inter one day but perhaps the English coaches need to take a leaf out of their foreign counterparts, in that if opportunities don't exist at home, you go anywhere where they do exist. I'm inclined to think that it's easier for a Paul Jewell type manager to accept the big bucks at a no hoper club like Derby than to try his hand at a better placed club abroad.

Well I think they are related. Why does Paul Ince think its better to have a less qualified Englishman at the helm? Is it the same reason why he uses foreign players for club over less qualified English kids coming through? Its certainly an argument against having Wenger in charge. But some may say that if there are better English kids coming through than what he has, then he would pick them. I disagree, but hey ho.

Back to English coach's. Fact of the matter is this. They are not good enough. Paul Jewell, took Bradford down. Quit Wigan, and is now about to take Derby down. Not really great credentials for a future England coach.

Stuart Pearce, couldn't get his side to score a goal at home for weeks. Is he the man for the job? No.

Steve Coppell. Did ok in first season, but tends to be struggling now.

Harry Redknapp, not the cleanest of souls. Plus he hasn't really done anything of note. Not many trophies in his cabinet.

Sam Allardyce, can't play any other way than the Bolton way, and it is showing at Newcastle. Again no trophies, so no job.

Sammy Lee, nothing to say.

Alan Curbishley or Alan Pardew, no trophies, plus history of relegation.

So that is why we can't pick an English coach, nobody has the CV good enough to do the job. Does make you wonder why we chose Steve McClaren, because he has no record, but there we go.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So we should have foreign players in the England team should we? I must say Ghost, you have me baffled. On dozens of posts you portray yourself as the ultimate patriot who wants English people to do everything. Yet here we have something where it is accepted that being English is the principal criteria for selection and you say we should be picking foreigners. I don't know if you don't just enjoy picking arguments or something

 

[GhostOfDixie]

So we should have foreign players in the England team should we? I must say Ghost, you have me baffled. On dozens of posts you portray yourself as the ultimate patriot who wants English people to do everything. Yet here we have something where it is accepted that being English is the principal criteria for selection and you say we should be picking foreigners. I don't know if you don't just enjoy picking arguments or something

I have not said we should have foreign players in the national side. I'm just saying Ince has no foundation in saying we should have an Englishman in the hot seat.

I am a patriot, but I'm not a racist. There is a difference in having an Italian manager who is [Poor language removed] hot at his job, and having some lowlife scumbag who just wants to act like a parasite.

Its not black and white as you, there are grey areas. Multi-culture is fine as long as it doesn't become segregated culture or english people losing out because johnny foreigner is becoming favourite.

Capello is highly trained, very successful and can offer this country a damn site more than any English manager can at this current time.

That's what I mean, not trying to start arguments.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I remember when Sven was appointed that the rational at the time was that it was a stop gap measure to allow the FA to perform reform of the coaching system in the country and therefore have an English coach when the next coach was appointed.

Obviously if you take the view that our coaches are [Poor language removed], which is quite possible, then this reform has failed miserably. It's a basic philosophy of management that you don't try and hide faults. Indeed at Toyota if a defect is found anywhere on the production line the entire production line is stopped until it's fixed and the same problem does not happen in future. No one likes that kind of pain and it ensures that people strive for quality in future.

International football is the platform for the best a nation can offer. That means the best English players, and in my opinion, should mean the best English coaches. We seem to be in agreement that English coaches aren't good right now, but appointing Capello (who I agree is one of the best there is) will merely paper over the cracks and the 'root and branch' overhaul of the English system will in all likelyhood fail to happen yet again. It's taken our failure to qualify for the Euro Champs to force us to look into how our kids are taught to play the game and that kind of failure should be highlighted and emphasised so that it doesn't happen again. If you ignore your failings then they'll never improve.

Regardless of whether hiring a foreign coach goes against the spirit of the international game, which I think it does, it is yet another short term measure by the FA rather than looking to improve the standard of coaching in this country. There's an excellent book by Jack Welch called Winning, within which he outlines his thoughts on management and succeeding in commerce. One quote stands out to me:

"As long as the turkeys aren't being told they're turkeys, they don't mind being there. … But you have to tell them about it, and the earlier you tell them in their careers, the better."

The basic premise is that you have to admit to your failings before you can change them. And once you have admitted them you talk candidly to people and act swiftly. I don't think the FA do any of these things and if Capello starts winning things these things will never change because the FA will start believing the headlines again and that all is sweetness.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

I remember when Sven was appointed that the rational at the time was that it was a stop gap measure to allow the FA to perform reform of the coaching system in the country and therefore have an English coach when the next coach was appointed.

Obviously if you take the view that our coaches are [Poor language removed], which is quite possible, then this reform has failed miserably. It's a basic philosophy of management that you don't try and hide faults. Indeed at Toyota if a defect is found anywhere on the production line the entire production line is stopped until it's fixed and the same problem does not happen in future. No one likes that kind of pain and it ensures that people strive for quality in future.

International football is the platform for the best a nation can offer. That means the best English players, and in my opinion, should mean the best English coaches. We seem to be in agreement that English coaches aren't good right now, but appointing Capello (who I agree is one of the best there is) will merely paper over the cracks and the 'root and branch' overhaul of the English system will in all likelyhood fail to happen yet again. It's taken our failure to qualify for the Euro Champs to force us to look into how our kids are taught to play the game and that kind of failure should be highlighted and emphasised so that it doesn't happen again. If you ignore your failings then they'll never improve.

Regardless of whether hiring a foreign coach goes against the spirit of the international game, which I think it does, it is yet another short term measure by the FA rather than looking to improve the standard of coaching in this country. There's an excellent book by Jack Welch called Winning, within which he outlines his thoughts on management and succeeding in commerce. One quote stands out to me:



The basic premise is that you have to admit to your failings before you can change them. And once you have admitted them you talk candidly to people and act swiftly. I don't think the FA do any of these things and if Capello starts winning things these things will never change because the FA will start believing the headlines again and that all is sweetness.

I couldn't agree more. But Capello is the business, he has proven it more than any other English manager/Swedish manager.

The whole Sven reign was littered with mistakes. We though have to trust the board, like we have to trust our own.

 

[monty]

Steve Coppel and Gareth Southgate have both picked up on this today and agree that we should have an English manager for most of the in favour reasons already given in this thread. What chance do young English managers now stand, like industry the ultimate top job has gone abroad. It seem that we are struggling to find englishmen in his backroom staff, they suggest Shearer, never having been a manager I would think it adds up to being a futher nail in the working English managers coffin.

The crux of this matter is money, could the Welsh, Scots, Irish FA's afford to pay a man nearly £7mil pa, the answer has to be no. In that case it is cheating by the backdoor. Every country should be forced to employ a national as its manager, no matter what otherwise money wins again.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

Steve Coppel and Gareth Southgate have both picked up on this today and agree that we should have an English manager for most of the in favour reasons already given in this thread. What chance do young English managers now stand, like industry the ultimate top job has gone abroad. It seem that we are struggling to find englishmen in his backroom staff, they suggest Shearer, never having been a manager I would think it adds up to being a futher nail in the working English managers coffin.

The crux of this matter is money, could the Welsh, Scots, Irish FA's afford to pay a man nearly £7mil pa, the answer has to be no. In that case it is cheating by the backdoor. Every country should be forced to employ a national as its manager, no matter what otherwise money wins again.

Yeah but by that token if we are to force an English manager, then that goes against EU law. We would then have to boot out all the foreign players, all the Polish who work here, the population would go down by a fair few million.

So what, we accept it. I don't like it that much, but who is there who can do the job. We have Steve Coppell and Southgate saying they want an Englishman in the job. Well they are Englishman, they are in the Premiership, why don't they do their job well enough to give the FA no option.

As it is, the lack of quality and credentials is the reason why the FA have now gone back to Europe.

Silver lining is that they are looking at bringing in young English managers to work within the Italian contingency and perhaps learn the trade.

 

[SuitsBlue]

ironically, the money seems a guarantee that the english side loses again.

although he is a scot, give ramsey the job

 

[SuitsBlue]

Silver lining is that they are looking at bringing in young English managers to work within the Italian contingency and perhaps learn the trade.

agreed, although i hope venables stays on, just to aid the transition, and that shearer or someone gets a chance to join in as well to pick up some of the skills and ideas.

although all the above was supposed to aid mcclaren whilst under the tutelage of sven.

 

[monty]

Yeah but by that token if we are to force an English manager, then that goes against EU law. We would then have to boot out all the foreign players, all the Polish who work here, the population would go down by a fair few million.
So what, we accept it. I don't like it that much, but who is there who can do the job. We have Steve Coppell and Southgate saying they want an Englishman in the job. Well they are Englishman, they are in the Premiership, why don't they do their job well enough to give the FA no option.

As it is, the lack of quality and credentials is the reason why the FA have now gone back to Europe.

Silver lining is that they are looking at bringing in young English managers to work within the Italian contingency and perhaps learn the trade.

Why?, the thread concerns rules on national selection of managers, it has nothing to do with the immigration debate. Sporting selections are exempt from EU legistlation otherwise we would have many foriegners in our side. All it requires is FIFA to encompass the managerial positon with in the rules applying to team selection, imo the sooner the better.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

Why?, the thread concerns rules on national selection of managers, it has nothing to do with the immigration debate. Sporting selections are exempt from EU legistlation otherwise we would have many foriegners in our side. All it requires is FIFA to encompass the managerial positon with in the rules applying to team selection, imo the sooner the better.

No, sorry you got it wrong mate. Capello isn't representing the country, he is managing the team. Should we stop Wenger from managing Arsenal? No. I can see where your coming from, but Capello is doing a job in the EU, so he has rights as an EU citizen to do that job. FIFA can't do a thing.

 

[monty]

No, sorry you got it wrong mate. Capello isn't representing the country, he is managing the team. Should we stop Wenger from managing Arsenal? No. I can see where your coming from, but Capello is doing a job in the EU, so he has rights as an EU citizen to do that job. FIFA can't do a thing.

How on earth can I get my own thread wrong ffs, please read what has been written. The core of the argument, which for some strange reason you fail to grasp is INTERNATIONAL MANAGERS, it only reflects on English managers in the game, everyone knows what EU employment law is so why mention Wenger et al