2019/20 Leighton Baines.

[Groucho]

All those people didn't deny being reds. Baines has wriggled uncomfortably trying to distancing himself from Liverpool because it suits his image as a player who is Everton to the core.

He isn't though. He supported two clubs before he 'chose' Everton.

I find his evasiveness on the subject suspicious, and it speaks to his character.

The lad does not impress me. Yes, 350 appearances. Fair enough. Cap doffed, but he's not for me.

We’ll have to disagree Dave. If you compare him to Mick Lyons right, how do you rate him?

Apart from an obvious boyhood allegiance in Lyons’ case, both good players (Baines unarguably the best in his position in Europe at one point), both committed to the club and both ‘nearly men’ for us on more than one occasion.

I don’t see how one can be held up as a top blue and one can be derided in your view. He was a good player who could’ve left for more cash at least twice and instead stayed here, and has always made the right noises imo.

 

[davek]

We’ll have to disagree Dave. If you compare him to Mick Lyons right, how do you rate him?

Apart from an obvious boyhood allegiance in Lyons’ case, both good players (Baines unarguably the best in his position in Europe at one point), both committed to the club and both ‘nearly men’ for us on more than one occasion.

I don’t see how one can be held up as a top blue and one can be derided in your view. He was a good player who could’ve left for more cash at least twice and instead stayed here, and has always made the right noises imo.

There's no comparison between Mick Lyons and Baines: Lyons was loyal and a dyed in the wool blue.

 

[Groucho]

There's no comparison between Mick Lyons and Baines: Lyons was loyal and a dyed in the wool blue.

But that’s what I’m saying - their careers are quite similar in many ways, and Baines has claimed to be a blue.

What’s the difference?

 

[davek]

But that’s what I’m saying - their careers are quite similar in many ways, and Baines has claimed to be a blue.

What’s the difference?

The difference is that there's no way that Lyons would ever have been a snide running to the media and upsetting the club for personal gain. None whatsoever. Gordon Lee was an utter weapon at times too.

 

[Groucho]

The difference is that there's no way that Lyons would ever have been a snide running to the media and upsetting the club for personal gain. None whatsoever. Gordon Lee was an utter weapon at times too.

A lot of fans would say he was correct mate. I can’t say I disagreed with him at the time. I appreciate he was wrong in your opinion and I do see how you could see it as disrespectful, but he was right and in my opinion had the best intentions of the club at heart doing so.

 

[davek]

A lot of fans would say he was correct mate. I can’t say I disagreed with him at the time. I appreciate he was wrong in your opinion and I do see how you could see it as disrespectful, but he was right and in my opinion had the best intentions of the club at heart doing so.

It's never right to break the rule that you keep team matters in-house.

We all know that, but because it fitted the views of many people at the time who wanted the manger out it was conveniently allowed.

 

[Groucho]

It's never right to break the rule that you keep team matters in-house.

We all know that, but because it fitted the views of many people at the time who wanted the manger out it was conveniently allowed.

I do agree with this in part but on the other hand I still feel it was for the best.

 

[davek]

I do agree with this in part but on the other hand I still feel it was for the best.

D'you know what mate, if he'd actually been open and up front about how he viewed matters and confronted the manager publicly it wouldn't be half as bad. But look at the way he approached it - you see it in his post Martinez interviews with his vague references to 'we'd lost our way before the new manager came in...some of the things we expect to be in place were cast aside a short while back'.

If he had the balls to just come out and name names and confront the man he'd have more respect. Instead, he just left it hanging in the air using dog whistle comments designed to get friendly hacks to join up the dots on his behalf.

He abused the team ethos of this club...a man who's worn the armband that's graced Dean, Ball, Labone, Ratcliffe and Watson. I will never forgive that.

 

[tonka1878]

D'you know what mate, if he'd actually been open and up front about how he viewed matters and confronted the manager publicly it wouldn't be half as bad. But look at the way he approached it - you see it in his post Martinez interviews with his vague references to 'we'd lost our way before the new manager came in...some of the things we expect to be in place were cast aside a short while back'.

If he had the balls to just come out and name names and confront the man he'd have more respect. Instead, he just left it hanging in the air using dog whistle comments designed to get friendly hacks to join up the dots on his behalf.

He abused the team ethos of this club...a man who's worn the armband that's graced Dean, Ball, Labone, Ratcliffe and Watson. I will never forgive that.

I wasn't aware of bitter oranges before I was aware of you but I can see now why the FDA says it is bad for you.

 

[APN_EFC]

D'you know what mate, if he'd actually been open and up front about how he viewed matters and confronted the manager publicly it wouldn't be half as bad. But look at the way he approached it - you see it in his post Martinez interviews with his vague references to 'we'd lost our way before the new manager came in...some of the things we expect to be in place were cast aside a short while back'.

If he had the balls to just come out and name names and confront the man he'd have more respect. Instead, he just left it hanging in the air using dog whistle comments designed to get friendly hacks to join up the dots on his behalf.

He abused the team ethos of this club...a man who's worn the armband that's graced Dean, Ball, Labone, Ratcliffe and Watson. I will never forgive that.

I didn't really follow all of this, and I am more sympathetic than Dave, but one thing I agree for sure is that the way Baines and others have handled similar things - even this year's sub - standard performances - is not like true strong leaders. Even under Martinez, we lacked strong captains and now too, we are still lacking them. Jags, Baines, Barry etc, could have approached Martinez and strongly rebelled even, in private meetings, and I'm sure Martinez would have conceded ground. It's all in the past now, but It's relevant today, because I don't see who are the leaders on the pitch at the moment. Holgate, DCL may be - but they are not senior enough with any success behind them to be authoritative. Richy is, Coleman is, but not vocal enough on the pitch. Just 1 of our signings needs to be our new captain, and we need someone else to transform into a leader. Jags, Coleman & Baines were model professionals I'm sure but not leaders

 

[Kever10]

We’ll have to disagree Dave. If you compare him to Mick Lyons right, how do you rate him?

Apart from an obvious boyhood allegiance in Lyons’ case, both good players (Baines unarguably the best in his position in Europe at one point), both committed to the club and both ‘nearly men’ for us on more than one occasion.

I don’t see how one can be held up as a top blue and one can be derided in your view. He was a good player who could’ve left for more cash at least twice and instead stayed here, and has always made the right noises imo.

Baines was here about 14 years. He was really good for about 4, maybe 5, and at his peak, 1 of the top attacking left backs, probably in Europe.

I put a lot of his success down to the partnership with Pienaar, which was 2nd to none. The year Pienaar moved to Spurs, Baines performances faltered as he struggled to form any sort of connection with Bilyaletdinov. Pienaar returned, and Baines improved again. By Martinez 1st season, in 2013, and with Pienaar having become more of a fringe player, Baines was a shadow of his former self, and I actually felt Oviedo had taken over as the better attacking Left back. Baines didn't have the legs to get forward and back as he had before, and more often than not, would stop on the half way line and check back, pass to a CB or Gareth Barry, and stand still. His passing was still good, and his delivery usually spot on, but consider this, the last free kick he scored was Lukakus debut, and even that tells you he wasn't the same as before.

I believe Martinez saw this too, hence his plan to convert him to a deep lying playmaker, which he was ridiculed about until almost 7 years later when some of his biggest critics suggested he could maybe do a job there because of how good he was on the ball and how poor our midfield was.

Anyway, for his longevity, for some of the brilliant goals he scored, for his success rate as a penalty taker (when he chose to take them) and for his partnership with Pienaar, he will rightly be regarded as our best Left back for the last 20 years. There is no argument there.

But i lost a lot of respect for him over the Martinez thing, and it has tainted his reputation in my eyes, as someone who used to regard him as 1 of my favourite players. You can say a lot of fans agreed with him. That doesn't make 1 blind bit of difference. I didn't like Sam Allardyce, not as a man or as an Everton manager, but if players had disrespected him, not performed for him, formed cliques and used whatever influence they had to get rid of him, I would disagree with them too. It is not their job to do that. It is their job to go out and perform for the club and do whatever the manager wants them to do. If it doesnt work, the board will make the decision to remove him. You could make a case for players revolting if a manager was acting unprofessionally, ala Mike Walker, but I always got the impression Martinez was loyal and hard working and extremely grateful to manage our club. He was just an idealist and some of his ideas were flawed. But he didn't deserve the level of disrespect he got, and still gets in some quarters.

As for the Blue/Red thing, Dave makes a valid point. Its not about whether he's a blue or a red. It's about honesty and integrity. Snides change their answers to honest questions to get an easy ride. Even Nick Barmby admitted to supporting Liverpool just after we signed him, and he was a massive shithouse. If Baines had truly been a blue, as he later changed his mind to say, then his answers years before in a non partisan interview, while playing for a team in greater Manchester no less, would've been more akin to "I had family members who supported both, so I never had strong allegiances either way, but I did play for Evertons youth team before I was released and signed for Wigan."

To change your answer after you sign for a club is at best disingenuous and worst outright deceitful. And he has lived off it since.

 

[Groucho]

Baines was here about 14 years. He was really good for about 4, maybe 5, and at his peak, 1 of the top attacking left backs, probably in Europe.

I put a lot of his success down to the partnership with Pienaar, which was 2nd to none. The year Pienaar moved to Spurs, Baines performances faltered as he struggled to form any sort of connection with Bilyaletdinov. Pienaar returned, and Baines improved again. By Martinez 1st season, in 2013, and with Pienaar having become more of a fringe player, Baines was a shadow of his former self, and I actually felt Oviedo had taken over as the better attacking Left back. Baines didn't have the legs to get forward and back as he had before, and more often than not, would stop on the half way line and check back, pass to a CB or Gareth Barry, and stand still. His passing was still good, and his delivery usually spot on, but consider this, the last free kick he scored was Lukakus debut, and even that tells you he wasn't the same as before.

I believe Martinez saw this too, hence his plan to convert him to a deep lying playmaker, which he was ridiculed about until almost 7 years later when some of his biggest critics suggested he could maybe do a job there because of how good he was on the ball and how poor our midfield was.

Anyway, for his longevity, for some of the brilliant goals he scored, for his success rate as a penalty taker (when he chose to take them) and for his partnership with Pienaar, he will rightly be regarded as our best Left back for the last 20 years. There is no argument there.

But i lost a lot of respect for him over the Martinez thing, and it has tainted his reputation in my eyes, as someone who used to regard him as 1 of my favourite players. You can say a lot of fans agreed with him. That doesn't make 1 blind bit of difference. I didn't like Sam Allardyce, not as a man or as an Everton manager, but if players had disrespected him, not performed for him, formed cliques and used whatever influence they had to get rid of him, I would disagree with them too. It is not their job to do that. It is their job to go out and perform for the club and do whatever the manager wants them to do. If it doesnt work, the board will make the decision to remove him. You could make a case for players revolting if a manager was acting unprofessionally, ala Mike Walker, but I always got the impression Martinez was loyal and hard working and extremely grateful to manage our club. He was just an idealist and some of his ideas were flawed. But he didn't deserve the level of disrespect he got, and still gets in some quarters.

As for the Blue/Red thing, Dave makes a valid point. Its not about whether he's a blue or a red. It's about honesty and integrity. Snides change their answers to honest questions to get an easy ride. Even Nick Barmby admitted to supporting Liverpool just after we signed him, and he was a massive shithouse. If Baines had truly been a blue, as he later changed his mind to say, then his answers years before in a non partisan interview, while playing for a team in greater Manchester no less, would've been more akin to "I had family members who supported both, so I never had strong allegiances either way, but I did play for Evertons youth team before I was released and signed for Wigan."

To change your answer after you sign for a club is at best disingenuous and worst outright deceitful. And he has lived off it since.

I disagree with quite a lot of what you say.

 

[Kever10]

I disagree with quite a lot of what you say.

I guess that makes us Even then.

P. S. I tried to edit the naughty word but ran out of time. Didn't even realise I'd done it tbh. I guess that's what talking about Nick Barmby does to you.

 

[Coggy]

Baines was here about 14 years. He was really good for about 4, maybe 5, and at his peak, 1 of the top attacking left backs, probably in Europe.

I put a lot of his success down to the partnership with Pienaar, which was 2nd to none. The year Pienaar moved to Spurs, Baines performances faltered as he struggled to form any sort of connection with Bilyaletdinov. Pienaar returned, and Baines improved again. By Martinez 1st season, in 2013, and with Pienaar having become more of a fringe player, Baines was a shadow of his former self, and I actually felt Oviedo had taken over as the better attacking Left back. Baines didn't have the legs to get forward and back as he had before, and more often than not, would stop on the half way line and check back, pass to a CB or Gareth Barry, and stand still. His passing was still good, and his delivery usually spot on, but consider this, the last free kick he scored was Lukakus debut, and even that tells you he wasn't the same as before.

I believe Martinez saw this too, hence his plan to convert him to a deep lying playmaker, which he was ridiculed about until almost 7 years later when some of his biggest critics suggested he could maybe do a job there because of how good he was on the ball and how poor our midfield was.

Anyway, for his longevity, for some of the brilliant goals he scored, for his success rate as a penalty taker (when he chose to take them) and for his partnership with Pienaar, he will rightly be regarded as our best Left back for the last 20 years. There is no argument there.

But i lost a lot of respect for him over the Martinez thing, and it has tainted his reputation in my eyes, as someone who used to regard him as 1 of my favourite players. You can say a lot of fans agreed with him. That doesn't make 1 blind bit of difference. I didn't like Sam Allardyce, not as a man or as an Everton manager, but if players had disrespected him, not performed for him, formed cliques and used whatever influence they had to get rid of him, I would disagree with them too. It is not their job to do that. It is their job to go out and perform for the club and do whatever the manager wants them to do. If it doesnt work, the board will make the decision to remove him. You could make a case for players revolting if a manager was acting unprofessionally, ala Mike Walker, but I always got the impression Martinez was loyal and hard working and extremely grateful to manage our club. He was just an idealist and some of his ideas were flawed. But he didn't deserve the level of disrespect he got, and still gets in some quarters.

As for the Blue/Red thing, Dave makes a valid point. Its not about whether he's a blue or a red. It's about honesty and integrity. Snides change their answers to honest questions to get an easy ride. Even Nick Barmby admitted to supporting Liverpool just after we signed him, and he was a massive shithouse. If Baines had truly been a blue, as he later changed his mind to say, then his answers years before in a non partisan interview, while playing for a team in greater Manchester no less, would've been more akin to "I had family members who supported both, so I never had strong allegiances either way, but I did play for Evertons youth team before I was released and signed for Wigan."

To change your answer after you sign for a club is at best disingenuous and worst outright deceitful. And he has lived off it since.

I disagree with virtually everything you say , although I don't want to appear confrontational mate. I think that your view is within a tiny minority of the fanbase re Leighton (although you are entitled to it )

 

[Kever10]

I disagree with virtually everything you say , although I don't want to appear confrontational mate. I think that your view is within a tiny minority of the fanbase re Leighton (although you are entitled to it )

No that's cool. I am under no illusions that i am in the minority, as I lived through the Martinez era at the time and argued my case regularly back then as well.

As for disagreeing with virtually everything I say, which bit was it?

That Baines was undoubtedly our best left back for the last 20 years?

That his partnership with Pienaar was 2nd to none?

That he scored some fantastic goals for us but hasn't scored a free kick for 7 years?

That he struggled getting forward and back after 2013 and continually stopped on the half way line to check back?

That Mike Walker, who used to go and sunbathe on the pitch at Bellfield while the players trained was unprofessional?

That the fans hatred of Martinez was, at times, and to this day, over the top?

That Baines openly saying he was a red and changing his answer to blue only after he signed for us was disingenuous?

I'd love to know. Not in a confrontational way mind. I'm just curious.