Lionel Messi - the ultimate 'flat track bully'?

[Goat]

On form today TxB, you bought a new keyboard or something?

 

[bluebastardo]

Messi, just like Beckham, was built up far too high by the press, and will no doubt, just like Beckham, get knocked down again. Maradonna was never the best player in the world, but just the most exciting at the World Cup at the time, and the same can be said for most of the stars of the past. His wonder goal was more a showcase of how poor England were as anything else. Just as Reidy, an Everton legend, couldn't be arsed to sprint back to defend, the same can be said for Barry, and many others before him, yet just as Reidy wasn't crap, neither is Barry. It's just a case of what we choose to remember and what we don't.

Ronaldo, Rooney, Torres; all the so called big names all failing to light up the competition.

The World cup does not dictate who the best players in the world are. The press do that.

Messi is a footballing genius, as is Rooney, as is Ronaldo as is Torres. Finding inspiration is what makes a particular players performance stand out. It's not an individual game, but a team game, and there are far too many elements to consider before judging one player.

 

[davek]

Ofcourse positioning matters, a midfield player has certain responsibilities and doesn't perform the role of a winger/wing forward, Messi's natural role. Messi is at his best in the final third, push him into a deeper central position and you aren't playing to his strengths, and if you want to get the best out of a player, that's what you do. It's like us using Arteta as a wide player, yes he can drift inside and come centrally, but it's completely different to playing as a centre midfield position. The position you take up, the role you have to play. Messi's was taking up a certain area of the pitch that was probably the easist for opposition players to negate his presence and cut off his space in and around the box.

There's no doubting Germany did a good job on Messi and Argentina as a team, credit to them, but people are giving you sensible reasons why Messi and Argentina weren't as successful as some people predicted them to be. And the positioning of a player and balance of a team does come into play. It's not the only reason, granted, but it does come into play.

But that's it really, Messi will go down as one of the best players to play the game, and he will be compared to the best ever, His record proves at the highest level gives him that right. And his record doesn't back up what your saying, 85 goals in two seasons from a player he isn't a conventional striker, and these goals can't have all been scored against Osasuna and Malaga.

Let's separate two things: his ability with the ball and his ability to impose himself on a tournament of this stature that all the greats have been able to do. Taking the latter first: I think even his greatest admirers will hold their hands up and concede that he had - a few blistering moments in a couple of group stage matches aside - a very ropey tournament for a man who's constatntly compared to the very best of all time. You can talk all day long about positioning (which we'll move onto shortly), but the WC has tremendous pressures and expectations that can crush a player. Being able to cope with/manage that is part and parcel of what allows a player to be truly called a great...a great on a par with the players I've already mentioned. To deny this this and to point to his 'greatness' elsewhere is to be sucked into some idiot defence of the CL as being the motherlode of world football, when we all know it can be won by some pretty [Poor language removed] teams on a regular basis with a fair wind behind them.

His play: he's unquestionably the best player around. This is not in dispute. But let's not get tangled up with these easy criticisms of what Messi does at Barca and the role he is asked to perform for his country in explaining away his inability to impose himself on the game/tournament. That seems to be the narrative that's getting told in the wake of this German defeat in order to preserve credibility: that he's had to go deeper and play more centrally than he otherwise likes to do. Look at the match instead. Whether the formation denied him the chance to cut in from the flank or forced him to carry the ball from deep (exaggerated, imo) he get himself and the ball into that part of the pitch he does his best work in time and time again...not only second half against germany but throughout the whole tournament. That's when he hit the buffers...around the box.

Of course the alternative way of critiquing this (and this is the counterpoint to your assertions) is to suggest that Messi is one diimensional - which, in and of itself, sort of undermines the notion that he's a great.

 

[davideinstein]

He's still the best player in the world.

 

[Rook]

At Barca he gets to play with Xavi, Inestista, Villa and maybe now Fabergas feeding him. Plus he gets to play against squads with not even 1/10th Barca's payroll (I think Mallorca had 3-4M euro payroll and they finished 5th!). He's a great player and I don't think he played bad as he created a few goals and opened up space for others but there probably some Henry in him. Its not as easy when you play squads that are close to/equal of your squads talent. Landon outplayed him so based on that after we buy LD maybe they'll trade Messi for him

Defo not the best player ever as some were saying.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Let's separate two things: his ability with the ball and his ability to impose himself on a tournament of this stature that all the greats have been able to do. Taking the latter first: I think even his greatest admirers will hold their hands up and concede that he had - a few blistering moments in a couple of group stage matches aside - a very ropey tournament for a man who's constatntly compared to the very best of all time. You can talk all day long about positioning (which we'll move onto shortly), but the WC has tremendous pressures and expectations that can crush a player. Being able to cope with/manage that is part and parcel of what allows a player to be truly called a great...a great on a par with the players I've already mentioned. To deny this this and to point to his 'greatness' elsewhere is to be sucked into some idiot defence of the CL as being the motherlode of world football, when we all know it can be won by some pretty [Poor language removed] teams on a regular basis with a fair wind behind them.

His play: he's unquestionably the best player around. This is not in dispute. But let's not get tangled up with these easy criticisms of what Messi does at Barca and the role he is asked to perform for his country in explaining away his inability to impose himself on the game/tournament. That seems to be the narrative that's getting told in the wake of this German defeat in order to preserve credibility: that he's had to go deeper and play more centrally than he otherwise likes to do. Look at the match instead. Whether the formation denied him the chance to cut in from the flank or forced him to carry the ball from deep (exaggerated, imo) he get himself and the ball into that part of the pitch he does his best work in time and time again...not only second half against germany but throughout the whole tournament. That's when he hit the buffers...around the box.

Of course the alternative way of critiquing this (and this is the counterpoint to your assertions) is to suggest that Messi is one diimensional - which, in and of itself, sort of undermines the notion that he's a great.

That's just like me arguing that Pele wasn't 'great' because he did **** all outside of Brazil. Messi has proven at the highest level (Champions League, and in one of the best Leagues in Europe) that he is currently the best player in World football, and any player who is the best player in the World at any time will be viewed as one of the best ever in my opinion. Any player who scores and assists as much as he does (from the position he plays) will be considered one of the best ever. His performances and record tell you all you need to know, it pretty much rubbishes your argument that's he's some sort of flat track bully.

It's such a limited way of looking at things, the most talented player in the world could play for Canada (for example) and because he never gets a chance to play in a world cup he could never be considered one of the best? I don't buy it to be honest. Just like a great player can be surrounded by a bunch of average players or an unbalanced team of individuals. And sorry but no, I don't buy into the myth that players like Pele and Maradona could win games on there own, it just didn't happen.

I'll say it again, positioning does play a part, he wasn't playing in his best position, therefore you aren't going to see the best of him, simple as. Just like if you asked Pele to play as a left winger he'd more than likely struggle, or be less effective. No doubt people would have you believe that Maradona could somehow do it all from right back.

Messi is one of the most talented players to ever grace the game, he will be compared to the best ever, whether you like it or not. And he doesn't have to win the World cup to be seen as 'one of the best', he already is.

 

[Brownie]

To be honest I thought he was actually pretty good at this World Cup.

 

[Alio]

As I stated earlier, I'm pretty sure if Klose scores 2 more goals, he won't be viewed as the best Striker of ALL TIME! He could only get 3 goals this whole season, in not such a great league apparently.....

Messi IS the best player in the World right now, and as said above, for the reason will be compared to other greats

Would Zidane have been so great if he chose Algeria to play for?

 

[davek]

That's just like me arguing that Pele wasn't 'great' because he did **** all outside of Brazil. Messi has proven at the highest level (Champions League, and in one of the best Leagues in Europe) that he is currently the best player in World football, and any player who is the best player in the World at any time will be viewed as one of the best ever in my opinion. Any player who scores and assists as much as he does (from the position he plays) will be considered one of the best ever. His performances and record tell you all you need to know, it pretty much rubbishes your argument that's he's some sort of flat track bully.

It's such a limited way of looking at things, the most talented player in the world could play for Canada (for example) and because he never gets a chance to play in a world cup he could never be considered one of the best? I don't buy it to be honest. Just like a great player can be surrounded by a bunch of average players or an unbalanced team of individuals. And sorry but no, I don't buy into the myth that players like Pele and Maradona could win games on there own, it just didn't happen.

I'll say it again, positioning does play a part, he wasn't playing in his best position, therefore you aren't going to see the best of him, simple as. Just like if you asked Pele to play as a left winger he'd more than likely struggle, or be less effective. No doubt people would have you believe that Maradona could somehow do it all from right back.

Messi is one of the most talented players to ever grace the game, he will be compared to the best ever, whether you like it or not. And he doesn't have to win the World cup to be seen as 'one of the best', he already is.

We must have criteria to measure peak performance/achievement. Clearly the CL cant provide that benchmark. If you argue club football allows this then you have to tell me why the Copa Libertadores isn't the measure of true greatness and a player like Riquelme who's excelled there should be argued to be ne of the greatest players of all time. The WC provides the intensity and quality to guage the situation. And I think most people felt that this WC was the opportunity for Messi to seal the deal, so to speak. He failed that test. As for some greats not having the opportnity to play a WC - maybe George Best was the only one that could be aimed at? If you play to an outstanding level the overwhelming odds are that you'll have come through a baptism of fire of a domestic league that does have a national team with pedigree.

As for Maradona not doing it from deep: take a look again at his two goals against England in '86. He's coming from wide right on the half way line. That Argentine side was very ordinary - hence the need for him to play in that roving manner. Apparently, though, it cant be done.

 

[teppic]

This thread has come 10 years too early.

It only takes one World Cup to Cement yourself as a world great. Messi has time yet.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

We must have criteria to measure peak performance/achievement. Clearly the CL cant provide that benchmark. If you argue club football allows this then you have to tell me why the Copa Libertadores isn't the measure of true greatness and a player like Riquelme who's excelled there should be argued to be ne of the greatest players of all time. The WC provides the intensity and quality to guage the situation. And I think most people felt that this WC was the opportunity for Messi to seal the deal, so to speak. He failed that test. As for some greats not having the opportnity to play a WC - maybe George Best was the only one that could be aimed at? If you play to an outstanding level the overwhelming odds are that you'll have come through a baptism of fire of a domestic league that does have a national team with pedigree.

As for Maradona not doing it from deep: take a look again at his two goals against England in '86. He's coming from wide right on the half way line. That Argentine side was very ordinary - hence the need for him to play in that roving manner. Apparently, though, it cant be done.

Because the vast majority of the better players from the Americas move to Europe, that's pretty obvious. It's been happening for years, European football is the place to be, the best European, African and American players players play here. Put it this way, you wouldn't see a team like New Zealand in the group stages of the Champions League, or teams like USA or Australia. It's very rare that it happens. It's a more competitive competition, it isn't just the best of your country, it's a mixture of players from various different continents. These teams play together, train together and have systems suited to there needs, therefore you usually see the best of them. I'd honestly back a fully fit Everton eleven to turn over England, I really would, and we aren't even one of the top three sides in our League.

No one's said Maradona couldn't do it from deep, but then I've seen Messi score a very similar goal on quite a few occasions, it doesn't mean he does it all the time and there are players and teams who will stop him in these situations, just like they would have done with Maradona. My point is people would have you believe that Maradona could win a game on his own and that his team was awful, it wasn't the case.

He was playing as part of a midfield four. I'm not blind, I saw him continually picking the ball in positions where deep lying playmakers are comfortable, making that first pass so to speak. That's completely different to drifting between advanced central/wide positions like Maradona did, as a forward. There is a different responsibility on his shoulders.

 

[davek]

Because the vast majority of the better players from the Americas move to Europe, that's pretty obvious. It's been happening for years, European football is the place to be, the best European, African and American players players play here. Put it this way, you wouldn't see a team like New Zealand in the group stages of the Champions League, or teams like USA or Australia. It's very rare that it happens. It's a more competitive competition, it isn't just the best of your country, it's a mixture of players from various different continents. These teams play together, train together and have systems suited to there needs, therefore you usually see the best of them. I'd honestly back a fully fit Everton eleven to turn over England, I really would, and we aren't even one of the top three sides in our League.

No one's said Maradona couldn't do it from deep, but then I've seen Messi score a very similar goal on quite a few occasions, it doesn't mean he does it all the time and there are players and teams who will stop him in these situations, just like they would have done with Maradona. My point is people would have you believe that Maradona could win a game on his own and that his team was awful, it wasn't the case.

He was playing as part of a midfield four. I'm not blind, I saw him continually picking the ball in positions where deep lying playmakers are comfortable, making that first pass so to speak. That's completely different to drifting between advanced central/wide positions like Maradona did, as a forward. There is a different responsibility on his shoulders.

I dont take that point about the CL being the better barometer than the Copa Libertadores - in fact, I dont believe either are the ultimate measure - the WC is. But just on the CL and Copa comparison: just because one draws in talent for money doesn't necessarily make it the ultimate location of talent in club football. Look how many times South American clubs have prevailed in the world club championships in it's various guises since it began in 1960. They edge those encounters. That might be an imperfect comparison, but it's the only one we have to go with.

As for Messi - we, and the other posters on the thread, will have to agree to disagree on him. Which was my point really: it's not daft to place a question mark over his place amongst the true greats.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

I dont take that point about the CL being the better barometer than the Copa Libertadores - in fact, I dont believe either are the ultimate measure - the WC is. But just on the CL and Copa comparison: just because one draws in talent for money doesn't necessarily make it the ultimate location of talent in club football. Look how many times South American clubs have prevailed in the world club championships in it's various guises since it began in 1960. They edge those encounters. That might be an imperfect comparison, but it's the only one we have to go with.

As for Messi - we, and the other posters on the thread, will have to agree to disagree on him. Which was my point really: it's not daft to place a question mark over his place amongst the true greats.

Which teams take as seriously as pre-season friendly games. I think it's quite obvious Europe is the place to be at present, that's why the best Brazilian/Argentine players play in Europe. The players that more than not, go to that mighty World cup. That's not to say every good South American plays here, but the vast majority do.

We'll agree to disagree on Messi. But one last question, why do you believe the World cup the highest level?

 

[davek]

Which teams take as seriously as pre-season friendly games. I think it's quite obvious Europe is the place to be at present, that's why the best Brazilian/Argentine players play in Europe. The players that more than not, go to that mighty World cup. That's not to say every good South American plays here, but the vast majority do.

We'll agree to disagree on Messi. But one last question, why do you believe the World cup the highest level?

World club championship: it might be treated as a friendly by English teams (though United felt it important enough to nearly ruin their own domestic season by going to Japan a few years back because Ferguson thought it prestigious enough), but do Italian, Spanish, German etc clubs feel this way? I think that might be a generalisation on your part there.

WC: I cant make the point any clearer than I have already really.
The competitiveness is there to be seen right from the off in the WC - unlike the CL Group stages which are a yawn inducing affair: the procession of two teams over 6 games. As for quality, it's impossible to prove this point, but from what I've seen a team like even the Uruguayan national team would waltz its way through a CL competition with only (maybe) Barca at their very best able to compete with them. Maybe the pride and passion of playing for the national team elevates the performance of players many top CL teams wouldn't invest in? Certainly the German, Spanish or even Dutch squads at this WC (who are pretty much all CL blooded players) would rout the best CL opposition. In my mind, there cant be a reasonable argument made for the contrary case to hold true. The best in international football holds sway over the best club football has to offer every time. I've already mentioned the intensity and pressure that goes with WC territory that also has to be factored into this, so I wont labour the point. In a nutshell that's why I dont buy in a month of sundays the argument that Messi's form in the hyped CL guarantees his place in the pantheon of greats and thereby nullifies any criticism of his WC failure. Maybe he'll rise to the occasion in Brazil 2014. Until then, we know what we know now...

 

[Brownie]

Dave? You actually REALLY THINK Uruguay would beat every single club team in Europe apart from 'maybe' Barcelona?