Martinez new Belgium head coach

[Benedict]

Why would he come back to this basket case of a club run by a reincarnation of Jesus Gil?

I agree with you about the club Dave but Martinez is nearly as bad as Silva mate, not quite as bad but nearly as bad as.

 

[Papa Shango]

We've done this so many times pal but whatever.....

Which got us 5th, somthing Moyes had managed more then once and even bettered in 04-05. 5th place wasn't an achievement under Moyes and it wasn't under Martinez either.

Not an achievement and it's laughable that you'd even suggest it was. Besides, Moyes tooks as far as Martinez managed in 14-15 on more then one occasion. Getting to the last 16 of the Europa league is not an achievement for Everton Football Club.

Again, not an achievement. Moyes took us to a few semi-finals and a final and we bottled the lot just like we did under Martinez. Reaching a semi-final or even final and losing is not an achievement and never will be. Tell you one thing that happened under Martinez in a semi-final that never happened under Moyes, the players going rogue and completely ignoring the managers game plan like they did under Martinez in 15-16 againt Man Utd.

You can pretend it was awful football all the time under Moyes but anyone who went the match then knows you're talking rubbish. At no point under Moyes was the football as painful to watch as 14-15 and 15-16. At no point did Moyes sacrifice the general well-being of this club for his own vanity project. You can keep trying to rewrite history but the fact is Moyes had a style that worked far better then Martinez's ever did here.

Look at us arguing over which manager failed the least.

"Oooh he got 4th", "record points total", "we got to a cup final", "we were the last English team in Europe" etc.

We got nothing. Absolute zero

State of our club.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Look at us arguing over which manager failed the least.

"Oooh he got 4th", "record points total", "we got to a cup final", "we were the last English team in Europe" etc.

We got nothing. Absolute zero

State of our club.

I don't consider the first seven or eight years of the Moyes tenure to be a failure though. You have to look at his run in context of where were at the time. We'd been relegation fodder for over a decade decade prior to his arrivel. The club was on the bones of its arse and no end was in sight, seriously if people think it's bad now they want to rember what things were like prior to Moyes in the 90's very early 2000's. He helped give this club it's dignity back and while Moyes was never a storming success he was hardly a failure like Martinez was.

 

[Papa Shango]

I don't consider the first seven or eight years of the Moyes tenure to be a failure though. You have to look at his run in context of where were at the time. We'd been relegation fodder for over a decade decade prior to his arrivel. The club was on the bones of its arse and no end was in sight, seriously if people think it's bad now they want to rember what things were like prior to Moyes in the 90's very early 2000's. He helped give this club it's dignity back and while Moyes was never a storming success he was hardly a failure like Martinez was.

He did OK. Getting 11 years at any club is a rarity especially in the modern era, I would expect him to have won something during that time. Yeah he did get us some respect back but then weirdly started to downplay us all the time. Early Moyes was a breath of fresh air, as was early Martinez actually. Sadly the end results still meant we finished with nothing to show for it.

 

[Simon Buttle]

He did OK. Getting 11 years at any club is a rarity especially in the modern era, I would expect him to have won something during that time. Yeah he did get us some respect back but then weirdly started to downplay us all the time. Early Moyes was a breath of fresh air, as was early Martinez actually. Sadly the end results still meant we finished with nothing to show for it.

I seem to remember that all started around the time we got told about a mysterious investment fund that was 'In the bank on Monday morning' Amazingly it never happened and i think he started to get a bit frustrated then as i think he thought with some backing he could take the team on a bit.

 

[Papa Shango]

I seem to remember that all started around the time we got told about a mysterious investment fund that was 'In the bank on Monday morning' Amazingly it never happened and i think he started to get a bit frustrated then as i think he thought with some backing he could take the team on a bit.

Judging by his big money signings he was probably wrong. Some managers are just suited to different scenarios I reckon.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

He did OK. Getting 11 years at any club is a rarity especially in the modern era, I would expect him to have won something during that time. Yeah he did get us some respect back but then weirdly started to downplay us all the time. Early Moyes was a breath of fresh air, as was early Martinez actually. Sadly the end results still meant we finished with nothing to show for it.

The last thee or so years of Moyes showed that he'd reached the end of his time here. He should of been aiming to win somthing then as he'd built a side that was more then capable of doing so. Prior to that though, he did more then ok. It was nothing short of brilliant the way he had us competing as high up in the table as he did with such little money. If he'd of managed to win somthing it would of been one of the best achievements in the club's history given our financial constraints of the time.

Things changed basically because Moyes wanted to go a stage further with the club and was told he'd not be given the money to do so. His whole outlook changed then. The club massively increased his wages and told him to shut up. He did and started to massively play down any expectations, but prior to that though he was never really negitive. It was Kenwright and co who were far more to blame then Moyes. It's not true to say he left nothing behind him to show though, we'd more then likely of been in the championship had he not rebuilt us. That's not a legacy to just dismiss out of hand imo.

As for the Martinez comparison, not having it. Moyes was pragmatic and sometimes told hard truths that weren't fun to hear, yes he was often overly negitive and cautious but he was just doing what he knew and thought was right. Martinez was a charlatan who stright up lied to anyone who'd listen, while throwing anyone and everyone else under the bus to save his own skin. He'd just say whatever he thought people wanted to hear rather then the truth. It's always nicer to hear managers say positive, optimistic things but "breath of fresh air" or not, it's worthless when the man saying it is a fantasist.

 

[Simon Buttle]

Judging by his big money signings he was probably wrong. Some managers are just suited to different scenarios I reckon.

No doubting that his more expensive signings tended to be poor overall. In the book 'The Nowhere Men' by Michael Calvin (all about football scouting) there is a fascinating chapter about Moyes at Everton and about how he went about looking for players using something called the 'whiteboard system' it's a fairly old school method basically involving a board for each postion within the tactic, say 4-4-2. Then for each position the first team player will be at the top of the board with about 10 names underneath as possible replacement signings in order of priority. He used to scout a single player up to 50 times each using different scouts to get an idea of a player due to Evertons financial restrictions and having to spend every penny properly.

 

[Papa Shango]

The last thee or so years of Moyes showed that he'd reached the end of his time here. He should of been aiming to win somthing then as he'd built a side that was more then capable of doing so. Prior to that though, he did more then ok. It was nothing short of brilliant the way he had us competing as high up in the table as he did with such little money. If he'd of managed to win somthing it would of been one of the best achievements in the club's history given our financial constraints of the time.

Things changed basically because Moyes wanted to go a stage further with the club and was told he'd not be given the money to do so. His whole outlook changed then. The club massively increased his wages and told him to shut up. He did and started to massively play down any expectations, but prior to that though he was never really negitive. It was Kenwright and co who were far more to blame then Moyes. It's not true to say he left nothing behind him to show though, we'd more then likely of been in the championship had he not rebuilt us. That's not a legacy to just dismiss out of hand imo.

As for the Martinez comparison, not having it. Moyes was pragmatic that sometimes told hard truths that weren't fun to hear. Martinez was a charlatan who stright up lied to anyone who's listen, whike throwing anyone and everyone else under the bus ato save hiabown skin. He'd just say whatever he thought people wanted to hear rather then the truth. It's always nicer to hear managers say positive, optimistic things but "breath of fresh air" or not, it's worthless when the man saying it is a fantasist.

Other clubs had financial constraints too, in terms of what we paid wages wise we were probably about right in terms of where we finished.

Of course he did a great job of keeping us up and then moving us to the right end of the table but once there he could not take us any further, money is an excuse used all too often, the team he had was good (due to him in all fairness) but his natural propensity to bottle it in the games that mattered always did for him.

I am not particularly a fan of either of them. Is that allowed these days as it always seems to be that you have to pick a side.

Everyone after Royle can do one.

 

[Papa Shango]

No doubting that his more expensive signings tended to be poor overall. In the book 'The Nowhere Men' by Michael Calvin (all about football scouting) there is a fascinating chapter about Moyes at Everton and about how he went about looking for players using something called the 'whiteboard system' it's a fairly old school method basically involving a board for each postion within the tactic, say 4-4-2. Then for each position the first team player will be at the top of the board with about 10 names underneath as possible replacement signings in order of priority. He used to scout a single player up to 50 times each using different scouts to get an idea of a player due to Evertons finnacial restrictions and having to spend every penny properly.

Yeah I have heard about all that. Seen it on some photos etc.

Do have to ask though, with all that in mind how did he manage to sign a defender who "couldn't head a ball"?

 

[Simon Buttle]

Yeah I have heard about all that. Seen it on some photos etc.

Do have to ask though, with all that in mind how did he manage to sign a defender who "couldn't head a ball"?

Yeah, given how detailed he was when it came to this sort of stuff, there are a few signings that are questionable to say the least, especially if you are watching a player up to 50 times!

 

[BigMick]

He wouldn't touch this club again with a barge pole. He's way too big for us. And that is the embarrassing truth for his dwindling band of detractors.

I'm completely with Dave on this: no way would 'El Maestro' come back to us.

After all, he only ever wangled his way into jobs with clubs who were doing well by their standards, or in our case, recent standards.

Swansea had won promotion, missed out in the play-offs for a second successive promotion, won 3 cups and had 2 trips to Wembley in the two seasons before he took over.

Wigan had finished comfortably in mid-table under those two managerial giants, Paul Jewell and Steve Bruce. The Roberto took over and he soon had them passing their way into the Championship. It's only now that they are showing signs of recovering from this catastrophe.

He left Wigan with the bizarre statement that he "wasn't the right man to bring them back up" and joined us on the back of Moyes' record of seven finishes in eight season of 7th or better, the one exception being when we finished 8th. After a good start we got steadily worse as Roberto's influence grew and the Moyes influence faded. Thank God the Carpetbagger put him out of his misery and sacked him otherwise we'd have almost certainly gone the same way as Wigan.

So there's no way that Roberto would come back to us when we're in such a sorry state. He'll be scouring the leagues looking to inherit a good side from a manager who's gone on to better things.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Other clubs had financial constraints too, in terms of what we paid wages wise we were probably about right in terms of where we finished.

Nobody who had similar financial constraints to us even came close to regularly competing like we did back then then.

Of course he did a great job of keeping us up and then moving us to the right end of the table but once there he could not take us any further, money is an excuse used all too often, the team he had was good (due to him in all fairness) but his natural propensity to bottle it in the games that mattered always did for him.

Our lack of money wasn't an excuse to not go further then mate. It was a massive legitimate issue that held us back massively. His bottling was a problem, nobody will ever dispute that Moyes was a bottler but all I'll say is that our record againt the "big sides" since he left has hardly been impressive either. During the premier league era we've hardly ever won a game that mattered and bottled big games on so many occasions that it's embarrassing. I don't think the club's tendency to bottle games can be laid at the feat of anyone one manager at this stage.

I am not particularly a fan of either of them. Is that allowed these days as it always seems to be that you have to pick a side.

Everyone after Royle can do one.

Sure you can dislike both, I was never even the biggest Moyes fan myself truth be told. I just recognise the job he did here, warts and all. The main reason I defend him so much is because of lies that get told about him that borders on propaganda in some cases.

The entire myth of Martinez is built around the idea that he "saved us" after years of drudgery under Moyes. His supporters simply wont accept that he failed and took us backwards while undoing everything that Moyes did. So when people question this the result is a Moyes vs Martinez debate.

 

[4737carlin]

As bad as Roberto was he was still much better then Silva, and there was reason to go for him, but this current idiot didnt have a worthy CV, id have Martinez back in heartbeat over him, least he got us a great win at Old Trafford, right now SIlvas finest moment was a 0 0 draw at Chelsea

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

As bad as Roberto was he was still much better then Silva, and there was reason to go for him, but this current idiot didnt have a worthy CV, id have Martinez back in heartbeat over him, least he got us a great win at Old Trafford, right now SIlvas finest moment was a 0 0 draw at Chelsea

Oh come on mate, Silva is Martinez, Just without the charisma and the one fluke season that was built around a good team that somebody else built.