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martinez -- short term approach?

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UTD/ Chelsea and Arsenal are cash rich.......Villa are in a good position, making money whilst holding young assets. Good business model....we should be in the middle and are far from it.

If we sold Kone on at 30/31 or 31/32 (next 2 seasons) how much would he go for ? under 5mil so its an immediate loss for us.

If Kone's goals are the difference between European places and a 10th place finishes... he's likely to pay for himself in prize money and probably in shirt sales. Let alone from a fan perspective as they get to enjoy a decent striker banging 'em in.
Of course he may be dross but that's the same with any signing. Forlan at United for example, but Kone has proven this season he has Premiership ability and 5mil is not a lot for proven ability at any age below 30.
 
If Kone's goals are the difference between European places and a 10th place finishes... he's likely to pay for himself in prize money and probably in shirt sales. Let alone from a fan perspective as they get to enjoy a decent striker banging 'em in.Of course he may be dross but that's the same with any signing. Forlan at United for example, but Kone has proven this season he has Premiership ability and 5mil is not a lot for proven ability at any age below 30.

isn't it weird that we think we even have to explain that we want to see players coming into, or staying with the team that could make them worth watching. we have survived over a century without people talking about future financial transfer values, in fact in the past if a club were signing someone with a view to making money in future then there would have been a massive backlash. Even noticed yesterday how commentators were talking about Murray's increased commercial value within seconds of a moment of history. Where does this mindset come from? And before someone talks about getting in the real world then it doesn't make any sense anyway because it ignores the quality of the product, and if we really want to get into the real world why watch the game in the first place
 
Part 1 of the 4 step short-term approach complete.

Not even 1% excited. It's like finding out theres no easter bunny :(
 
Part 1 of the 4 step short-term approach complete.

Not even 1% excited. It's like finding out theres no easter bunny :(

Well thankfully that's not the case eh!!

Kone scored last term more than any of our players, and that is with arguably a lesser quailty supply chain. He's an Everton player now no matter what, so lets not moan before he's even had a chance eh.
 
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isn't it weird that we think we even have to explain that we want to see players coming into, or staying with the team that could make them worth watching. we have survived over a century without people talking about future financial transfer values, in fact in the past if a club were signing someone with a view to making money in future then there would have been a massive backlash. Even noticed yesterday how commentators were talking about Murray's increased commercial value within seconds of a moment of history. Where does this mindset come from? And before someone talks about getting in the real world then it doesn't make any sense anyway because it ignores the quality of the product, and if we really want to get into the real world why watch the game in the first place

Sadly I think its the result of our board mate.

Youre right of course, but I understand the financial argument because like it or not, money matters more than ever, but for me, quality football and good results are the best solutions to get the money to keep going and improve. Kone is the striker Martinez hopes we are missing. That's good enough for me.
 
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Awesome a link to a 2 year old report

16th June 2013

Last year full accounts are available for.

I could have just posted mockery that Villa is a "business model we should follow" when they are entirely reliant on a billionaire owner to sustain a wage bill over 100% of turnover.
 
16th June 2013

Last year full accounts are available for.

I could have just posted mockery that Villa is a "business model we should follow" when they are entirely reliant on a billionaire owner to sustain a wage bill over 100% of turnover.


It's a 2 year old report and no the wage bill is not over 100% of turnover. That's rather obvious.
 
It's a 2 year old report and no the wage bill is not over 100% of turnover. That's rather obvious.

It's the latest available accounts & wages accounted for £70m of their £79m turnover.

They're totally reliant on a benefactor owner.
 

Are we seriously having an argument about if we should be more like Villa or not?

Excellent post. Again, in this very thread there are people who actually reply "their legs don't fall off at 30".What an absolutely naive mindset.
It's naive to think you can get better by selling your best players in their prime.

Baines value as you highlighted will drop. Selling him can bring in 2 good players.
So we get worse.

How do we know that by signing 2 players of great potential for the fee we wouldnt have 2 future world class players even better than baines and also better for the team as a whole?
... because the odds of nailing two transfers like that are like 10,000-1? Maybe higher. If it was that easy to pick world class players for 10m or so we should just mortgage the future to sign a handful of them and we'll make up the difference with CL income.

If teams could routinely turn one player sold into two (or more) great players then we wouldn't have been the "best of the rest" for the last 10 years because all the teams below us sell their best players ALL THE TIME and it hasn't helped them finish higher than a team than signs the likes of Distin (because age isn't as important as most people think).

Poppycock! The 'squad' we have brings the age down but the players in the squad are comprising of a fair few u19s who are nowhere near the team.
Lots of other teams have a lot of U-21 in their squad. We are hardly unique in that regard.

Why are you so concerned for us to buy players with a resale value - are you resigned to our great club being a feeder club. There is no guarantee that anyone with potential we will buy will ever be worth more. And following that theory the biggest profit to be made is via our own youngsters we bring through. The best way of alleviating our financial problems without a buyer/investor is success on the pitch. I want us to benefit from any players we develop not another club.
Damn straight.

Then allow the man to blood our youth, as Fergie did at utd to great effect when the chips were down. "Kids ? You'll win nothing with kids ! " Now which football pundit infamously said this ?
... the one who (while a massive RS POS) was playing the odds and didn't realized Man. U. were sitting on one of the greatest set of young talents coming up at the same time we have ever seen in the UK? If we have a generation like that poised to come up then absolutely let's play 'em ... if we just have a few lads who might come good if we're lucky then we're best off not handing them the keys just yet.
 
It's the latest available accounts & wages accounted for £70m of their £79m turnover.

They're totally reliant on a benefactor owner.

I can assure you that they wont be any longer. It's not hard to do the maths on the wages for example coming down enormously.
 
I can assure you that they wont be any longer. It's not hard to do the maths on the wages for example coming down enormously.

You can't assure me of anything, as you've no idea what their cost base will be in the next set of accounts

They lost £33m in the last set & Lambert spent £20m in the market last summer, the fact remains that they're seiving cash & are being bailed out by Lerner, thus making your assertion that they're a model to be followed, total nonsense
 
Are we seriously having an argument about if we should be more like Villa or not?

It's naive to think you can get better by selling your best players in their prime.

So we get worse.

... because the odds of nailing two transfers like that are like 10,000-1? Maybe higher. If it was that easy to pick world class players for 10m or so we should just mortgage the future to sign a handful of them and we'll make up the difference with CL income.

If teams could routinely turn one player sold into two (or more) great players then we wouldn't have been the "best of the rest" for the last 10 years because all the teams below us sell their best players ALL THE TIME and it hasn't helped them finish higher than a team than signs the likes of Distin (because age isn't as important as most people think).

Lots of other teams have a lot of U-21 in their squad. We are hardly unique in that regard.

Damn straight.

... the one who (while a massive RS POS) was playing the odds and didn't realized Man. U. were sitting on one of the greatest set of young talents coming up at the same time we have ever seen in the UK? If we have a generation like that poised to come up then absolutely let's play 'em ... if we just have a few lads who might come good if we're lucky then we're best off not handing them the keys just yet.

1st paragraph - Totally the opposite thinking to mine i'm afraid. Selling players in their prime before they go downhill is common sense as is signing 2 good younfer players to improve the team.

2nd para-- no obviously the team should get better (maybe not in the 1st year as the new players are integrated).

3rd para--In that case you add up the ages of our players who are actually near the pitch and then do the same for other teams...you'll find ours is one of the if not the oldest -- people have been commenting on this for months.

4th para-- Obviously neither are familar with the business model everton operate under nor the fact that only 2 everton youth players have come through in a generation to be worth any resale value above their worth to the squad. I suppose tottenham and arsenal are feeder clubs too....

5th para -- you sound like peter pan. No-one said anything about suddenly playing a youth team.
 
I know it's not sexy and everyone thinks we're going to sign some 17 year old for 5m who turns out to be the next Messi but realistically we have been successful over the past decade because we've adopted a slightly contrary viewpoint and found an area of the market which is undervalued.

Most teams go nuts over young starlets and the prices are too high; meanwhile good professionals who are 30 are undervalued because of the line of thinking some people have expressed in this thread.

When you are a (relatively) poor team you have to compete in the less competitive area where assets are undervalued rather than trying to get in the pool with hundreds of other teams who are desperate to over-pay for the next big thing.

All of our "value" signings (Lescott, Baines, Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar) had something on them which made them undervalued (playing in lower league, bad experience with a high profile club) so we saw undervalued players there when others looked away chasing "the next big thing."

It's not really complicated -- teams that retain their best players through their prime will succeed while teams which sell their best players and try to replace them will eventually die off because it's a house of cards. House of cards aren't good.

Sell to buy doesn't work because of risk of ruin. A few bad buys (which every team has) and you are back to square one. A team with our lack of funds would have to be practically perfect with every buy and that's not realistic. Sooner or later you're going to sign a Bily and a Kroldrup (maybe a Carroll) and you're out millions and have to basically start all over again.

Obviously you don't ignore youth (and we haven't as we've built an elite academy) and nor do you ignore a young player even if the price is high if you think it's good value (Fellaini). So you have to be flexible. However the main core should be finding undervalued players and right now one of the best areas for that is 29+.

Young players are lottery tickets and we aren't rich enough to be spending a lot of our allowance on long-shots.

1st paragraph - Totally the opposite thinking to mine i'm afraid. Selling players in their prime before they go downhill is common sense as is signing 2 good younfer players to improve the team.
There are numerous books/articles etc. written which debunk that line of thinking. You may well disagree with them but you should give them a read. Soccernomics is a good start (although only a few chapters are relevant to this discussion -- more a library book than a buy). It's "common thinking" by football fans but I don't agree with the "sense" part.

Let me ask you this: most teams below us in the league are in a sense "selling clubs." Very few have CL-level players who don't at some point get sold. So why hasn't it helped them leapfrog us in the league?

Surely they should take the cash they get from flogging off their star players and improve themselves? Sell one great player and buy two great players ... how could it ever fail? So who should we model ourselves after? Because they all sell ... why doesn't it help them? Meanwhile we sign Distin, Neville etc and have this tiny old squad ... and yet we beat them year after year after year. Does that not give you a second's pause that maybe their strategy doesn't work too well?

2nd para-- no obviously the team should get better (maybe not in the 1st year as the new players are integrated).
This line of thinking baffles me. There is no "should" ... managers buy the wrong players all the time. If we're talking about Baines ... one of the best LBs in the world ... the odds of getting better players than him (for 5-10m) are simply not very good. It's almost insane the level of rose-tinted glasses you need to think any team with any manager could nail two transfers that well. If we could sell Baines for 20m and buy four Baines for 5m of course we should do that ... but it's not realistic.

3rd para--In that case you add up the ages of our players who are actually near the pitch and then do the same for other teams...you'll find ours is one of the if not the oldest -- people have been commenting on this for months.
... and we finished above all the younger teams.

Moyes was perhaps a little too cautious in this regard (we all wanted to see Ross play more) but it baffles me how many people don't know that we didn't win DESPITE being old; we won BECAUSE we were old. Distin is better than pretty much any young defender in the entire world which we could afford. If you put Duffy (or some other youngster) in we ship more goals. Yes Duffy gets better faster and is worth a few more million but we suffer now. Do this across the pitch and we're suddenly a bottom half team with some valuable "assets" to sell in a fantastic "business model" that doesn't work (long-term) for a single team in the Prem.

If you want to stay in Euro contention the only way we should be getting younger is signing another 30 year old to replace Distin.
 

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