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2020/21 Moise Kean

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You're so right mate. I mean, has there even been a negative post about Sigurdsson in the last 4 years? I certainly don't think i've seen one.

they’ve all been from me. But no seriously, it took a long time for the majority opinion on this forum to sway against him. He was certainly given far more of a chance than Kean. Considering one was an experienced international with premier league experience and the other is a teenager from Serie A the expectations seem to be out of kilter.
 
We signed a young striker with not a word of English for less than we paid for the likes of Iwobi and Bolasie - and the expectation was that he would have a similar season to the first season of our best academy product of the generation?

Well, just because we overspent ridiculously on Iwobi and Bolasie, doesn’t mean that a £27m player shouldn’t come with any expectations.

If we’re paying that kinda money for a 20 year old, I expect him to rival our best academy products for sure.

Nothing I saw of Kean (which was very little tbf) prior to him joining us suggested to me we were buying a player that was going to dribble through defenses or score 30 yard screamers.

Bit of a redundant argument this, as you’re putting words into people’s mouths - who is expecting him to score 30 yard screamers? Has one person on here demonstrated that as an expectation?

What were hoping to see was some justification for the money spent. Hard to see that at all.
 
they’ve all been from me. But no seriously, it took a long time for the majority opinion on this forum to sway against him. He was certainly given far more of a chance than Kean. Considering one was an experienced international with premier league experience and the other is a teenager from Serie A the expectations seem to be out of kilter.
I think that's revisionist though. You expected Kean to be our first choice striker when he signed, as we all did. I've just had a quick look and you talked numerous times about how he would be starting, and then about how he wasn't but should be. You also said you thought he might be an absolute superstar but accepted that he might not quite reach double figures for goals, you thought 8. He got 2. And a whole year later he still isn't starting. Let's not make out like people are being unreasonable in expecting better than we've seen from him, because it's quite clear that your expectations were higher too. Just because you've lowered your standards it doesn't mean we all have to surely?
 
I mentioned dribbling past players because you did! You said it's easy to dribble past league 2 defenders, I was saying it would have been nice if he'd done it then. The point is just that his all round game isn't very good at the moment. I'm simply saying that I expected to see things from him that made it clear why there was so much hype, even if he didn't actually deliver. Somebody nailed it a few pages back, we paid a finished article price (for us) for extremely raw potential. If i'm honest i have no real interest in how good he'll be at 25 because either way I very much doubt he'll be here at that point. Whether he takes off or not I doubt he'll be here more than 3/4 seasons so seeing him still putting in very very raw performances more than 12 months after signing is extremely disappointing. I just don't think he's even considered as a feasible option to play up front in the league at the moment, and that is absolutely not what we were expecting when we bought him, hype or no hype.

Just to clarify, what I said was.

"Also, I completely agree with you RE Nkounkou and Gordon - their performances last night (and Gordon post lockdown in general) are the types of performances that get you excited. The problem with playing up front is that your performances are never really exciting without adding goals, which is much more difficult than dribbling passed a league 2 full back."

If he was playing out on the left wing then ya, I would've been disappointed if he wasn't able to get passed their full-back.
(Funnily enough I do actually remember him going passed their right full-back and being annoyed that he had drifted out wide leaving nobody in the box ;) )

I get the disappointment and I get the disinterest in what type of player he'll be in 5 years. He's certainly still raw in terms of his performances. He very well might never be able to cut it in this league, but I just don't think we can say that yet. As I pointed out earlier, plenty thought that DCL would never be able to cut it at premier league level.

I also don't think we'll have to wait that long to be able to answer that question on whether or not he really does have something about him - he's going to get some more 90 minutes opportunities in these early cup ties that are going to come thick and fast.

Could be wrong - and i don't want to be putting words in your mouth - but from what I can see the difference in our opinions here is just based on whether or not the jury is in on his future at the club.

Can I ask, do you want to see him gone? If so, do you want him loaned out or sold?
Just curious if you think he's been given enough time now and that it's settled that he's just not good enough for the club.
 

Just to clarify, what I said was.

"Also, I completely agree with you RE Nkounkou and Gordon - their performances last night (and Gordon post lockdown in general) are the types of performances that get you excited. The problem with playing up front is that your performances are never really exciting without adding goals, which is much more difficult than dribbling passed a league 2 full back."

If he was playing out on the left wing then ya, I would've been disappointed if he wasn't able to get passed their full-back.
(Funnily enough I do actually remember him going passed their right full-back and being annoyed that he had drifted out wide leaving nobody in the box ;) )

I get the disappointment and I get the disinterest in what type of player he'll be in 5 years. He's certainly still raw in terms of his performances. He very well might never be able to cut it in this league, but I just don't think we can say that yet. As I pointed out earlier, plenty thought that DCL would never be able to cut it at premier league level.

I also don't think we'll have to wait that long to be able to answer that question on whether or not he really does have something about him - he's going to get some more 90 minutes opportunities in these early cup ties that are going to come thick and fast.

Could be wrong - and i don't want to be putting words in your mouth - but from what I can see the difference in our opinions here is just based on whether or not the jury is in on his future at the club.

Can I ask, do you want to see him gone? If so, do you want him loaned out or sold?
Just curious if you think he's been given enough time now and that it's settled that he's just not good enough for the club.
I don't want him gone in that sense. What I want is for him to be absolutely brilliant for us really, or at least good enough to do a good job for us when called upon. The problem is just that I don't think he is at the moment, and I don't think Ancelotti thinks he is either. We'll never know but I reckon last night he was about 5 seconds away from getting hooked when Sigurdsson scored and meant we could leave him on without it being a problem. Anyone can have a bad game, but you need good ones too to balance it out, and he hasn't had anywhere near enough of them. I'm certainly not saying he'll never be a top player, he's got years to improve, but as I say, i'm interested in what he does for us, and at the moment that's not much. If Ancelotti thinks he can be a functional option this season and a top striker next then i'm happy enough with that and say stick with him. If we have concerns that he's never going to fit in with what we're doing then I say get him out. Without being harsh, his personal development is of no interest to me, I support Everton not individual players.
 
Well, just because we overspent ridiculously on Iwobi and Bolasie, doesn’t mean that a £27m player shouldn’t come with any expectations.

If we’re paying that kinda money for a 20 year old, I expect him to rival our best academy products for sure.



Bit of a redundant argument this, as you’re putting words into people’s mouths - who is expecting him to score 30 yard screamers? Has one person on here demonstrated that as an expectation?

What were hoping to see was some justification for the money spent. Hard to see that at all.

Well to be fair, you're putting words in my mouth here. I never said there should be no expectations. I was saying that thinking he would produce the same level of excitement as when Rooney broke on the scene is part of the reason people are disappointed now. That first Rooney season is probably the most excited I ever remember being about a new player. If that's your benchmark then you're going to be let down 999 times out of 1000.

As far as the 30 yard screamers go, I've already responded to Lanolin saying that I when I read his response I thought he was making a direct comparison to Rooney's first season as opposed to a comparison with the excitement he produced then. I'm not making any attempts to build straw men here and I'm not looking for a fight or to get one up on anyone.
 
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I think that's revisionist though. You expected Kean to be our first choice striker when he signed, as we all did. I've just had a quick look and you talked numerous times about how he would be starting, and then about how he wasn't but should be. You also said you thought he might be an absolute superstar but accepted that he might not quite reach double figures for goals, you thought 8. He got 2. And a whole year later he still isn't starting. Let's not make out like people are being unreasonable in expecting better than we've seen from him, because it's quite clear that your expectations were higher too. Just because you've lowered your standards it doesn't mean we all have to surely?

Yeah I thought he’d do better. I still think he’ll be a super star. There’s a huge difference though between expectations not being immediately met, and wanting him sold. I still think he should get more starts, I still think with more starts last season he would have scored more goals.
 
I don't want him gone in that sense. What I want is for him to be absolutely brilliant for us really, or at least good enough to do a good job for us when called upon. The problem is just that I don't think he is at the moment, and I don't think Ancelotti thinks he is either. We'll never know but I reckon last night he was about 5 seconds away from getting hooked when Sigurdsson scored and meant we could leave him on without it being a problem. Anyone can have a bad game, but you need good ones too to balance it out, and he hasn't had anywhere near enough of them. I'm certainly not saying he'll never be a top player, he's got years to improve, but as I say, i'm interested in what he does for us, and at the moment that's not much. If Ancelotti thinks he can be a functional option this season and a top striker next then i'm happy enough with that and say stick with him. If we have concerns that he's never going to fit in with what we're doing then I say get him out. Without being harsh, his personal development is of no interest to me, I support Everton not individual players.

Sorry, "want" him gone was probably a poor way for me to phrase that, but I think you get what I meant.

I think everything you've said above is super reasonable - essentially, "trust in Carlo"
And I think you're right, he was definitely about to get hooked last night.

I wouldn't be distraught if he was sold tomorrow as for me that would mean "Carlo doesn't fancy him".
However, I think he'll be here for the season (just my opinion and could easily be wrong) and as a result my thoughts are more along the lines of "Carlo thinks he has a chance".

This is the only reason I've been posting about this - i think he'll be given a chance so lets not write him off two games into the season.
(Not for one second saying you were writing him off - but that sentiment has definitely been present on this thread which is why I posted originally.)
 

Even though he was poor, he scored the penalty and hit the post a couple of times. He could have had a hat trick without doing anything really and there would be some on here looking for him to replace DCL.
“Hit the post a couple of times”

I would say, missed an absolute sitter of a header by hitting the bar personally.

No matter what age you are, if your playing up front for our first team, you should be burying those chances.
 
Just to clarify, what I said was.

"Also, I completely agree with you RE Nkounkou and Gordon - their performances last night (and Gordon post lockdown in general) are the types of performances that get you excited. The problem with playing up front is that your performances are never really exciting without adding goals, which is much more difficult than dribbling passed a league 2 full back."

If he was playing out on the left wing then ya, I would've been disappointed if he wasn't able to get passed their full-back.
(Funnily enough I do actually remember him going passed their right full-back and being annoyed that he had drifted out wide leaving nobody in the box ;) )

I get the disappointment and I get the disinterest in what type of player he'll be in 5 years. He's certainly still raw in terms of his performances. He very well might never be able to cut it in this league, but I just don't think we can say that yet. As I pointed out earlier, plenty thought that DCL would never be able to cut it at premier league level.

I also don't think we'll have to wait that long to be able to answer that question on whether or not he really does have something about him - he's going to get some more 90 minutes opportunities in these early cup ties that are going to come thick and fast.

Could be wrong - and i don't want to be putting words in your mouth - but from what I can see the difference in our opinions here is just based on whether or not the jury is in on his future at the club.

Can I ask, do you want to see him gone? If so, do you want him loaned out or sold?
Just curious if you think he's been given enough time now and that it's settled that he's just not good enough for the club.
As for scoring goals...currently hes 3 in 3. If he averages a goal a game through his Everton career he'll be a legend.
 
“Hit the post a couple of times”

I would say, missed an absolute sitter of a header by hitting the bar personally.

No matter what age you are, if your playing up front for our first team, you should be burying those chances.

Many of the sort of chance DCL misses regularly?
 

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