Mr bates v the Post Office

[COYBL25]

Maybe I'm being naive here but I would have expected that any solicitor or barrister, who was representing the accused in Court, to have raised the issue of lack of disclosure. The Judge could then have ordered the PO to provide full disclosure.

As said above, if the Post Office said there was nothing to disclose, that would be the end of the matter.

If it was a Police investigation, they’d have got the lot, but due to it being the Post Office Investigations, they undoubtedly thought they could do what they wanted, as they didn’t play by the same rules as everyone else and didn’t see the need to.

 

[Blue Piper]

To prove a crime in Court the prosecutor must show that the accused is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. A sub office operates a type of float system. They would have to show that the sub postmaster changed some docket or overinflated a cash figure. This would have to be proven rather than taking someone's word for it.

 

[Joey66]

Maybe I'm being naive here but I would have expected that any solicitor or barrister, who was representing the accused in Court, to have raised the issue of lack of disclosure. The Judge could then have ordered the PO to provide full disclosure.

Easy the funny handshake brigade in all big organised organisations in the UK - the Judiciary included ....

 

[COYBL25]

To prove a crime in Court the prosecutor must show that the accused is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. A sub office operates a type of float system. They would have to show that the sub postmaster changed some docket or overinflated a cash figure. This would have to be proven rather than taking someone's word for it.

The computer recorded all ins and outs.

So when the computer figures didn’t balance or was altered without the post masters knowledge, that was enough.

That‘s the whole crux of the matter.

 

[arch stanton]

The computer recorded all ins and outs.

So when the computer figures didn’t balance or where altered without the post masters knowledge, that was enough.

That‘s the whole crux of the matter.

the PO case falls apart as there was one SPM who was being audited and as he was being audited, the Horizon system completed 'transactions' all on its own in front of the SPM and auditors, direct evidence of access to the system remotely, and/or technical malfunctions, his issues weren't pursued in court and he was hushed. Others were still prosecuted on the back of the data from this system with the knowledge of the PO. That is criminal behaviour from the PO.

 

[COYBL25]

the PO case falls apart as there was one SPM who was being audited and as he was being audited, the Horizon system completed 'transactions' all on its own in front of the SPM and auditors, direct evidence of access to the system remotely, and/or technical malfunctions, his issues weren't pursued in court and he was hushed. Others were still prosecuted on the back of the data from this system with the knowledge of the PO. That is criminal behaviour from the PO.

That alone would’ve torpedoed every single case, if it’d been known.

It’s impossible to see how people aren’t going to go to jail over this.

The level of deceit is mind boggling.

All to protect the brand / reputation of the Post Office.

 

[arch stanton]

That alone would’ve torpedoed every single case, if it’d been known.

It’s impossible to see how people aren’t going to go to jail over this.

The level of deceit is mind boggling.

All to protect the brand / reputation of the Post Office.

I agree with every word brother.

I'd like the work of Bates, Wallis, possibly Hislop too, to be recognised in a suitable way too.

 

[bcblue1878]

….he must be wishing he was one of the investigators who gave evidence before the TV programme. He’s being seen live on the news, his names is scrolling along the Sky News banner and every word he says is being analysed. His life won’t be the same, those who’ve already given evidence will not be under the same spotlight.

i doubt a TV drama has ever had such a significant impact.

A couple of times this afternoon he’s been right on the edge of losing it with the KC/Barrister!
I reckon the KC/Barrister could turn the screw slightly and this guy would lose it totally.

 

[ForestBlue]

A couple of times this afternoon he’s been right on the edge of losing it with the KC/Barrister!
I reckon the KC/Barrister could turn the screw slightly and this guy would lose it totally.

Not sure where I heard this from but I believe in a public enquiry the barristers job is to extract as much info as they can, not to be too confrontational causing any witness to lose it or clam up.

I may be wrong on this though!

 

[bcblue1878]

Not sure where I heard this from but I believe in a public enquiry the barristers job is to extract as much info as they can, not to be too confrontational causing any witness to lose it or clam up.

I may be wrong on this though!

It’s an interesting watch tbh, the Barrister is not being obviously confrontational but is as you would expect very well prepared, the investigator not quite so much - and it shows!

 

[Blue Piper]

the PO case falls apart as there was one SPM who was being audited and as he was being audited, the Horizon system completed 'transactions' all on its own in front of the SPM and auditors, direct evidence of access to the system remotely, and/or technical malfunctions, his issues weren't pursued in court and he was hushed. Others were still prosecuted on the back of the data from this system with the knowledge of the PO. That is criminal behaviour from the PO.

Again I am a bit at sea here. If the transaction that Horizon completed on it's own was payment of a bill then someone's account was credited with the extra money. If it was the sale of stamps then the SPM would still have the stamps. If it was cash in or out of an account then the account would be incorrectly shown as up or down.

 

[gonetomorrow]

This guy Bradshaw is going to get pelters in the tabloids tomorrow. Shame they haven't shown more interest in the case until now.
They'll be probing into his private life while his bosses remain untouched, at least so far. He wasn't the only investigator and he didn't make the rules.
Several others need sorting out, starting at the top.

 

[arch stanton]

Again I am a bit at sea here. If the transaction that Horizon completed on it's own was payment of a bill then someone's account was credited with the extra money. If it was the sale of stamps then the SPM would still have the stamps. If it was cash in or out of an account then the account would be incorrectly shown as up or down.

there seems to be big holes in the investigation process, they were never able to determine where this missing cash was. Had there been an auditable trail, they would. It seems a flawed IT system, an horrific investigation process that was steeped in confirmation bias, amongst many other failings. Some of these 'transactions' were 'corrections', some done remotely via Fujitsu staff. As you say, it should have been traceable, Mr Bates was a meticulous man who audited his own branch when there were issues but he couldn't as there was information missing. This information was also corrupted. This became a problem when investigators blindly followed their electronic evidence chain without giving it any scrutiny or verification.

 

[Blue Piper]

there seems to be big holes in the investigation process, they were never able to determine where this missing cash was. Had there been an auditable trail, they would. It seems a flawed IT system, an horrific investigation process that was steeped in confirmation bias, amongst many other failings. Some of these 'transactions' were 'corrections', some done remotely via Fujitsu staff. As you say, it should have been traceable, Mr Bates was a meticulous man who audited his own branch when there were issues but he couldn't as there was information missing. This information was also corrupted. This became a problem when investigators blindly followed their electronic evidence chain without giving it any scrutiny or verification.

That's absolutely horrifying.

 

[mightymoyes]

As said above, if the Post Office said there was nothing to disclose, that would be the end of the matter.

If it was a Police investigation, they’d have got the lot, but due to it being the Post Office Investigations, they undoubtedly thought they could do what they wanted, as they didn’t play by the same rules as everyone else and didn’t see the need to.

pretty sure there's been plenty of miscarriages of justice due to the police not disclosing all relevant info to a defence.
basically never trust any institution or authority figures.