. . . and don't it always seem to be that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone.
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New Everton Stadium
- Thread starter D410
- Start date
roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
I quite like them. Stop my roof falling on me.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
"Hartley employed the same ‘cyclopean’ granite style of building used in his dock retaining walls, of finely jointed rubble stones brought to a fair face - tapered in section from base to top – topped with rounded coping stones."
Not sure from that whether they are or not.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Different context.
Davideeyore
Player Valuation: £30m
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
On the issue of making this home when it's built: article on the teething problems fans have with getting used to their new stadium and the issue of transferring identity over from Goodison.
This is the City/Etihad experience:
TL;DR - obvioulsy....
Part 1.
Manchester City, mobility and placelessness
In a contemporary football landscape of locational and geographical change, the analysis of Manchester City Football Club and the relocation to the City of Manchester Stadium highlights some interesting issues surrounding the new British football stadium and a sense of place. In reaction to the placeless stadium environment, thinking around the sporting tophilia can then be developed around these new cultural spaces by looking at how the power of the fans to refigure and renegotiate their fandom has been used in a variety of ways to try to create a sense of identity within the new stadium space. A bringing of the ‘old’ to the ‘new’ appears to be central to the attempted creation of place in these new social spaces with no history or identity of their own, whilst the physical presence, organization and mobility of activated fan groups such as Bluewatch present not only the collective concern over the ability to identify with the new stadium environment, but also demonstrate the power to organize as a collective force to make an impact on how the stadium is appropriated and to change activity within. With the current drive to relocate within British professional football showing no signs of slowing down, the move to these new stadiums will continue to be a rich and fertile ground for the analysis of the sporting tophilia and indeed for the development of football fan culture itself.
We are not, we're not really here,
We are not, we're not really here,
Just like the fan of the invisible man,
We're not really here.
On a gloriously sunny day in Manchester in May 2003, Manchester City Football Club played its last ever home game at Maine Road stadium, home to the blue half of Manchester for 80 eventful and often turbulent years.1 As Moss Side, Manchester waved goodbye to professional football at one of British football's most traditional and historic grounds, Manchester City Football Club took up full time residence in the new council-owned City of Manchester Stadium, a venue which was originally built for the Commonwealth Games held in the city in the summer of 2002. The famous City chant took on a new meaning ‘we are not really here’!2
This new community facility, situated some five miles from Maine Road in the east of the city, was designed by Arup Associates and constructed by Laing at a cost of £110 million. The stadium itself was funded by Manchester City Council and Sport England and it is the redoubtable centrepiece of an area which has become known as ‘Sportcity’. This integrated leisure development also hosts the Manchester velodrome (built in the 1990s), an outdoor athletics arena, an indoor tennis centre, and also incorporates a range of commercial developments in what is all part of a wider regeneration project on a former brownfield site known as ‘Eastlands’. As the summer of 2003 saw Manchester City FC become the seventeenth British professional football club to relocate to a new stadium in the post-Taylor Report era, it can be argued that this contemporary move by a football club to a facility with a remit far wider than the hosting of Manchester City home matches, allied with the internal dynamics of the new stadium itself, and with all things ‘Maine Road’ seemingly haunting the new stadium development, allows for some interesting issues surrounding the stadium and a sense of place to be raised in relation to those supporters who gather within its internal spaces on a matchday. As part of this supporter relationship with the stadium, the widely held charge of the new stadiums built in the post-Taylor Report era being ‘placeless’ environments is something that can be examined through a detailing of the City of Manchester Stadium and its hosting of Manchester City FC.
It has been through the eclectic sports-geographic writings of John Bale,3 who has been the pre-eminent author, researcher and critic working within the growing sub-discipline of the geography of sport, that we are introduced to a range of theoretical insights into the sporting space and place of the stadium. Drawing on the work of geographer Edward Relph in Place and Placelessness and the notion of an ‘authentic sense of place’, which Relph describes as ‘that of being inside and belonging to your place both as an individual and as a member of a community, and to know this without reflecting on it’,4 Bale believes that ‘such authenticity is threatened with the development of the sanitised, safe, concrete but “placeless” stadium which will possess fewer landscape elements and simply less scenery for the spectator to absorb and enjoy’.5 Bale draws heavily on Relph's notion of placelessness which in its geographical sense describes places as looking and feeling alike with ‘dictated and standardised values’.6One of Relph's five characteristics of placelessness,7 which Bale believes can be applied to the football environment, is that of uniformity of design which Bale believes can be related to the tendency towards the uniformity of design in international styles of architecture.8 Further drawing on Relph,9 who sees modern landscapes as becoming increasingly dehumanized and rationalized spaces, Bale sees the modern football ground and its ‘concrete-bowl’ model10 as being a sporting example of this rationalization of the British landscape. Further drawing on a wider literature in relation to this more placeless landscape, Bale also identifies with the work of Marc Auge who believes that within society there is a tendency to create what he calls ‘non-places’.11 Auge identifies that ‘a space which cannot be defined as relational, or historical, or concerned with identity will be a non-place’.12 Bale believes that in an increasingly homogenized, more standardized football landscape, the establishment of these non-places may well dominate the city skyline. John Bale's theoretical insights into the placeless stadium can undoubtedly be recognized through an appreciation of the contemporary football landscape. They have also been backed up in an empirical sense by studies such as that conducted by one of the present authors13 into the stadium and topophilia which have shown that the lack of individual elements and place-like qualities contained within these new football spaces has led to them being defined as ‘characterless’ and sterile structures which are perceived as suffering from a lack of identity as a result, in what has become a more homogenized stadium landscape, and a world of mobile city cultures. Certainly with regards to the placeless stadium and an understanding of a ‘non-place’ as applied to the sporting arena, it can be argued that through an analysis of the City of Manchester Stadium, there is a lack of identity with the built environment. This multi-functional sporting and cultural facility can be seen to suffer from a lack of a relational and individual binding to Manchester City FC, and its past, which raises questions regarding City supporters' ability to identify with this new social space and how this impinges upon identity formation within the stadium. This, however, is all played out within a stadium built with a wider community rationale of inclusion through building design which has allowed ‘other’ fan communities to be more fully integrated into the City matchday experience.
In May 2003 the Kippax, Platt Lane, Main and North Stands emptied themselves for the final time at Maine Road Manchester, home to City fans for generations, as misty-eyed nostalgia was awash within the Moss Side half of the city,14 the club having been down in the 3rd tier of English football a few years earlier.15 Whilst this has become the norm within football fan communities when stadiums and famous ends are lost to the bulldozers and new inner city dwellings, it is important that this is not just seen as simply romanticism and unabashed sentimentalism. These traditional football stadiums can be understood as being historical social spaces where people's implicit understanding of these particular geographic areas could lead to a deep identity formation and the development of a sense of place within the stadium itself.16 Traditionally garnered through the experience of returning to the stadium over time, the embodied and social experiences encountered within the stadium, and the all important sensory aspect to the stadium experience,17 an understanding of issues surrounding the development of the sporting tophilia or a sense of place within the traditional stadium is important when performing an analysis of the new stadiums built in the post-Taylor Report era and the issue of place attachment (or lack of it) within these new sporting structures.
The City of Manchester Stadium was initially designed to be the host venue for the 2002 Commonwealth Games and was then subsequently passed over to Manchester City FC on a rental basis to ensure a lasting long-term use for the stadium itself. As well as being the new home to Manchester City, the stadium is also an important community facility where almost every day of the year there is activity within its inner spaces. This is undeniably a truly multi-functional stadium facility where other sporting and cultural events take place, including international football matches, rugby league internationals and rock concerts, whilst boxer Ricky Hatton, an avid Manchester City fan, has also fought within the stadium space. Indeed the stadium is such an individual form in its own right that it even has its own designated website, where it can be seen that Manchester City FC are merely just one of the many actors who ‘play’ within the generic stadium space. In traditional football culture where club and stadium were previously synonymous with each other, through this type of development in Manchester, it can be argued that there is a lack of a sense of ownership felt by the fans within the stadium space and a diluted relationship is subsequently formed.
Indeed to demonstrate the increasing importance placed on the hosting of other types of events within the stadium space which can be seen to marginalize the importance placed on Manchester City FC's role within it, in July 2008 City had to play the home leg of their UEFA Cup qualifier against Faroese outfit EB/Streymur at Oakwell, the home of Barnsley FC. The reason for this was that the playing surface at the City of Manchester Stadium had been left in an unsuitable condition due to a Bon Jovi concert having taken place within the stadium in the close season. It is certainly hard to imagine Manchester United FC being forced to leave the ‘theatre of dreams’ to play a Champions League qualifying tie at, say, Oldham Athletic's Boundary Park ground due to the Old Trafford pitch being destroyed by the comings and goings of a pop concert. Through an analysis of the case of the City of Manchester Stadium, the wider rationale of the multi-functional purpose built new stadium and the consequences of this are brought sharply into focus.
This is the City/Etihad experience:
TL;DR - obvioulsy....
Part 1.
Manchester City, mobility and placelessness
In a contemporary football landscape of locational and geographical change, the analysis of Manchester City Football Club and the relocation to the City of Manchester Stadium highlights some interesting issues surrounding the new British football stadium and a sense of place. In reaction to the placeless stadium environment, thinking around the sporting tophilia can then be developed around these new cultural spaces by looking at how the power of the fans to refigure and renegotiate their fandom has been used in a variety of ways to try to create a sense of identity within the new stadium space. A bringing of the ‘old’ to the ‘new’ appears to be central to the attempted creation of place in these new social spaces with no history or identity of their own, whilst the physical presence, organization and mobility of activated fan groups such as Bluewatch present not only the collective concern over the ability to identify with the new stadium environment, but also demonstrate the power to organize as a collective force to make an impact on how the stadium is appropriated and to change activity within. With the current drive to relocate within British professional football showing no signs of slowing down, the move to these new stadiums will continue to be a rich and fertile ground for the analysis of the sporting tophilia and indeed for the development of football fan culture itself.
We are not, we're not really here,
We are not, we're not really here,
Just like the fan of the invisible man,
We're not really here.
On a gloriously sunny day in Manchester in May 2003, Manchester City Football Club played its last ever home game at Maine Road stadium, home to the blue half of Manchester for 80 eventful and often turbulent years.1 As Moss Side, Manchester waved goodbye to professional football at one of British football's most traditional and historic grounds, Manchester City Football Club took up full time residence in the new council-owned City of Manchester Stadium, a venue which was originally built for the Commonwealth Games held in the city in the summer of 2002. The famous City chant took on a new meaning ‘we are not really here’!2
This new community facility, situated some five miles from Maine Road in the east of the city, was designed by Arup Associates and constructed by Laing at a cost of £110 million. The stadium itself was funded by Manchester City Council and Sport England and it is the redoubtable centrepiece of an area which has become known as ‘Sportcity’. This integrated leisure development also hosts the Manchester velodrome (built in the 1990s), an outdoor athletics arena, an indoor tennis centre, and also incorporates a range of commercial developments in what is all part of a wider regeneration project on a former brownfield site known as ‘Eastlands’. As the summer of 2003 saw Manchester City FC become the seventeenth British professional football club to relocate to a new stadium in the post-Taylor Report era, it can be argued that this contemporary move by a football club to a facility with a remit far wider than the hosting of Manchester City home matches, allied with the internal dynamics of the new stadium itself, and with all things ‘Maine Road’ seemingly haunting the new stadium development, allows for some interesting issues surrounding the stadium and a sense of place to be raised in relation to those supporters who gather within its internal spaces on a matchday. As part of this supporter relationship with the stadium, the widely held charge of the new stadiums built in the post-Taylor Report era being ‘placeless’ environments is something that can be examined through a detailing of the City of Manchester Stadium and its hosting of Manchester City FC.
It has been through the eclectic sports-geographic writings of John Bale,3 who has been the pre-eminent author, researcher and critic working within the growing sub-discipline of the geography of sport, that we are introduced to a range of theoretical insights into the sporting space and place of the stadium. Drawing on the work of geographer Edward Relph in Place and Placelessness and the notion of an ‘authentic sense of place’, which Relph describes as ‘that of being inside and belonging to your place both as an individual and as a member of a community, and to know this without reflecting on it’,4 Bale believes that ‘such authenticity is threatened with the development of the sanitised, safe, concrete but “placeless” stadium which will possess fewer landscape elements and simply less scenery for the spectator to absorb and enjoy’.5 Bale draws heavily on Relph's notion of placelessness which in its geographical sense describes places as looking and feeling alike with ‘dictated and standardised values’.6One of Relph's five characteristics of placelessness,7 which Bale believes can be applied to the football environment, is that of uniformity of design which Bale believes can be related to the tendency towards the uniformity of design in international styles of architecture.8 Further drawing on Relph,9 who sees modern landscapes as becoming increasingly dehumanized and rationalized spaces, Bale sees the modern football ground and its ‘concrete-bowl’ model10 as being a sporting example of this rationalization of the British landscape. Further drawing on a wider literature in relation to this more placeless landscape, Bale also identifies with the work of Marc Auge who believes that within society there is a tendency to create what he calls ‘non-places’.11 Auge identifies that ‘a space which cannot be defined as relational, or historical, or concerned with identity will be a non-place’.12 Bale believes that in an increasingly homogenized, more standardized football landscape, the establishment of these non-places may well dominate the city skyline. John Bale's theoretical insights into the placeless stadium can undoubtedly be recognized through an appreciation of the contemporary football landscape. They have also been backed up in an empirical sense by studies such as that conducted by one of the present authors13 into the stadium and topophilia which have shown that the lack of individual elements and place-like qualities contained within these new football spaces has led to them being defined as ‘characterless’ and sterile structures which are perceived as suffering from a lack of identity as a result, in what has become a more homogenized stadium landscape, and a world of mobile city cultures. Certainly with regards to the placeless stadium and an understanding of a ‘non-place’ as applied to the sporting arena, it can be argued that through an analysis of the City of Manchester Stadium, there is a lack of identity with the built environment. This multi-functional sporting and cultural facility can be seen to suffer from a lack of a relational and individual binding to Manchester City FC, and its past, which raises questions regarding City supporters' ability to identify with this new social space and how this impinges upon identity formation within the stadium. This, however, is all played out within a stadium built with a wider community rationale of inclusion through building design which has allowed ‘other’ fan communities to be more fully integrated into the City matchday experience.
In May 2003 the Kippax, Platt Lane, Main and North Stands emptied themselves for the final time at Maine Road Manchester, home to City fans for generations, as misty-eyed nostalgia was awash within the Moss Side half of the city,14 the club having been down in the 3rd tier of English football a few years earlier.15 Whilst this has become the norm within football fan communities when stadiums and famous ends are lost to the bulldozers and new inner city dwellings, it is important that this is not just seen as simply romanticism and unabashed sentimentalism. These traditional football stadiums can be understood as being historical social spaces where people's implicit understanding of these particular geographic areas could lead to a deep identity formation and the development of a sense of place within the stadium itself.16 Traditionally garnered through the experience of returning to the stadium over time, the embodied and social experiences encountered within the stadium, and the all important sensory aspect to the stadium experience,17 an understanding of issues surrounding the development of the sporting tophilia or a sense of place within the traditional stadium is important when performing an analysis of the new stadiums built in the post-Taylor Report era and the issue of place attachment (or lack of it) within these new sporting structures.
The City of Manchester Stadium was initially designed to be the host venue for the 2002 Commonwealth Games and was then subsequently passed over to Manchester City FC on a rental basis to ensure a lasting long-term use for the stadium itself. As well as being the new home to Manchester City, the stadium is also an important community facility where almost every day of the year there is activity within its inner spaces. This is undeniably a truly multi-functional stadium facility where other sporting and cultural events take place, including international football matches, rugby league internationals and rock concerts, whilst boxer Ricky Hatton, an avid Manchester City fan, has also fought within the stadium space. Indeed the stadium is such an individual form in its own right that it even has its own designated website, where it can be seen that Manchester City FC are merely just one of the many actors who ‘play’ within the generic stadium space. In traditional football culture where club and stadium were previously synonymous with each other, through this type of development in Manchester, it can be argued that there is a lack of a sense of ownership felt by the fans within the stadium space and a diluted relationship is subsequently formed.
Indeed to demonstrate the increasing importance placed on the hosting of other types of events within the stadium space which can be seen to marginalize the importance placed on Manchester City FC's role within it, in July 2008 City had to play the home leg of their UEFA Cup qualifier against Faroese outfit EB/Streymur at Oakwell, the home of Barnsley FC. The reason for this was that the playing surface at the City of Manchester Stadium had been left in an unsuitable condition due to a Bon Jovi concert having taken place within the stadium in the close season. It is certainly hard to imagine Manchester United FC being forced to leave the ‘theatre of dreams’ to play a Champions League qualifying tie at, say, Oldham Athletic's Boundary Park ground due to the Old Trafford pitch being destroyed by the comings and goings of a pop concert. Through an analysis of the case of the City of Manchester Stadium, the wider rationale of the multi-functional purpose built new stadium and the consequences of this are brought sharply into focus.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Part 2
The City of Manchester Stadium has also appeared to suffer from an identity crisis through the naming of the stadium itself. As well as its aforementioned most commonly used name, which is sometimes abbreviated to ‘COMS’, the stadium is also referred to as ‘Eastlands’ (the name of the wasteland site on which it was built), or ‘Middle Eastlands’ after the Abu Dhabi United Group takeover, whilst it is also sometimes called ‘Sportcity’, the name of the integrated leisure development of which the stadium is the figurehead of, as part of the regeneration of east Manchester. Such was the City fans' lack of enamour with any of these stadium names, that the moniker ‘Blue Camp’ (think of Barcelona's Nou Camp) was used by some supporters early on in the club's tenure of the stadium, as a forging of a sense of identity was attempted. For the Blues' historical stadium of Maine Road read Manchester City FC; for the City of Manchester Stadium/COMS/Eastlands/Sportcity, read Manchester City FC, Commonwealth Games, community facility and international sporting and cultural epicentre. When the new stadium itself became home to Manchester City FC from the start of the 2003/04 league season, one of the first complaints about the ground itself was the fact that Manchester City season ticket holders at Maine Road could not transfer their particular seat over to the corresponding seat at the new stadium. Many groups of supporters consisting of friends and families alike who together had watched City play for many years at Maine Road, were now split up and scattered to different parts of the new ground. In particular, supporters were told that they could not have the same position in the City of Manchester Stadium's West Stand, which is the equivalent of what was the Main Stand at Maine Road. With the shared experience of the stadium part of the development of the sense of place within the traditional football ground, this fragmentation and atomization of supporter groups before the first ball was even kicked in earnest at the new stadium sees the issue of place attachment instantly raised around the fans in the newly built environment.
In the very first season of the City of Manchester Stadium hosting Manchester City home matches, there was also a major concern with the lack of atmosphere being created within the new stadium. An Atmosphere Action Group (AAG) was formed by a group of supporters describing themselves as old school Kippax, North Stand and Platt Lane from the 1980s, and it was this Atmosphere Action Group who tasked themselves with trying to facilitate a designated singing section within the stadium for those who wanted to vociferously cheer on City on a matchday. For their home FA Cup tie with Tottenham Hotspur FC in January 2004, the club agreed to turn 100 seats over to the Atmosphere Action Group, where two blocks of seats were indeed designated as a singing section. Where at Maine Road the stadium had four very distinct and different geographically separated stands with identities all of their own, the City of Manchester Stadium has been designed in the style of the now ubiquitous circular bowl. Where City fans at Maine Road would have known where to congregate if they wanted a more vociferous spectating experience (the Kippax, the North Stand, etc), the new stadium can be seen to suffer from having no real identity attached to its four similarly designed stands. The Colin Bell Stand (West Stand), Key 103 Stand (South Stand), Family Stand (North Stand) and the East Stand have no cultural meanings as geographical spaces compared to the historically charged Kippax, Main Stand, North Stand and Platt Lane End at Maine Road. In an attempt to try to create an identity at the City of Manchester Stadium, the East Stand was even unofficially named the ‘Kippax’ by some City fans after the corresponding stand at Maine Road. With the Kippax name so synonymous with Manchester City FC, this attempt by some supporters to create a forced identity within the new stadium speaks volumes about the lack of place attachment, and a need to bring the ‘old’ to the ‘new’ within the stadium space. Manchester City fans who watched City play at Maine Road could be quite proprietorial about their particular area of the ground, whether you were a Kippaxite or a North Stander, an identity which appears to be lacking within the new City of Manchester Stadium space.
Another interesting angle to the discussion on the stadium and a sense of place through an analysis of Manchester City fans and the City of Manchester Stadium can be raised through the issue of stadium regulation and control and how this can impinge upon spectator behaviour and football fan culture. Early on in City's tenure of the stadium, it can be documented that some City fans were actually ejected from the ground itself, with some even having their season tickets taken away from them, for standing up during matches and trying to create an atmosphere within the stadium. Indeed with reference to one particular game in 2004, Atmosphere Action Group founder-member Simon Cooper stated that ‘the pubs close to the stadium were heaving before we played Spurs, but many fans stayed where they were during the game because they could sing and use a bit of colourful language without them being ejected’.18Through what can be described as heavy-handed stewarding and a more sanitized experience encountered inside the stadium, it is interesting that it is the local public houses in the vicinity of the City of Manchester Stadium which are mentioned as being the public social space where aspects of traditional fan culture are allowed to be played out, away from the space of the live event and the stadium itself.
In reference to the experience of visiting the stadium, one City supporter on the City fans forum site states that, ‘the stadium is sterile, homogenised, it has no soul. Everyone is sat down, it's like a Cliff Richards [sic] gig. No smoking, no drinking, no swearing. Maine Road was like a Happy Mondays gig, atmosphere, character.’19 The analogy between watching City play at their former historical ground of Maine Road and enjoying a performance by the Happy Mondays, the mancunian band who were part of the ‘Madchester’ scene of the late 1980s and early 1990s, is an interesting one. Maine Road can be understood here as being one of carnival/music/atmosphere, whilst the City of Manchester Stadium experience is seen as being regulated/sanitized/characterless. Through an analysis of various Manchester City FC supporters' websites and fans forum sites it is apparent that the homogeneity of the new stadium, and the lack of visual appeal contained within, is of real concern to City fans who appear to appreciate difference over sameness in architectural design and the importance of the sensory aspect to the stadium and a sense of place. One City supporter stated that, compared to the City of Manchester Stadium, ‘Maine Road was more … personal. Obviously because it was the place we all grew up with City. The stadium itself was a real mish-mash of designs, but that's what gave it character.’ The same supporter also stated that with regards to the new stadium, they found it ‘very hard to get used to the symmetry of the place and the neatness of the concourses’. In addition to the physical architectural design of the new stadium, and furthering the importance given to the visual dimension to the stadium, an analysis of City fans' comments also show a disappointment that the letters M.C.F.C are not emblazoned across seats which it was deemed would help to instil some sort of identity to the geographical space and define the space as ‘City's’.
The City of Manchester Stadium has also appeared to suffer from an identity crisis through the naming of the stadium itself. As well as its aforementioned most commonly used name, which is sometimes abbreviated to ‘COMS’, the stadium is also referred to as ‘Eastlands’ (the name of the wasteland site on which it was built), or ‘Middle Eastlands’ after the Abu Dhabi United Group takeover, whilst it is also sometimes called ‘Sportcity’, the name of the integrated leisure development of which the stadium is the figurehead of, as part of the regeneration of east Manchester. Such was the City fans' lack of enamour with any of these stadium names, that the moniker ‘Blue Camp’ (think of Barcelona's Nou Camp) was used by some supporters early on in the club's tenure of the stadium, as a forging of a sense of identity was attempted. For the Blues' historical stadium of Maine Road read Manchester City FC; for the City of Manchester Stadium/COMS/Eastlands/Sportcity, read Manchester City FC, Commonwealth Games, community facility and international sporting and cultural epicentre. When the new stadium itself became home to Manchester City FC from the start of the 2003/04 league season, one of the first complaints about the ground itself was the fact that Manchester City season ticket holders at Maine Road could not transfer their particular seat over to the corresponding seat at the new stadium. Many groups of supporters consisting of friends and families alike who together had watched City play for many years at Maine Road, were now split up and scattered to different parts of the new ground. In particular, supporters were told that they could not have the same position in the City of Manchester Stadium's West Stand, which is the equivalent of what was the Main Stand at Maine Road. With the shared experience of the stadium part of the development of the sense of place within the traditional football ground, this fragmentation and atomization of supporter groups before the first ball was even kicked in earnest at the new stadium sees the issue of place attachment instantly raised around the fans in the newly built environment.
In the very first season of the City of Manchester Stadium hosting Manchester City home matches, there was also a major concern with the lack of atmosphere being created within the new stadium. An Atmosphere Action Group (AAG) was formed by a group of supporters describing themselves as old school Kippax, North Stand and Platt Lane from the 1980s, and it was this Atmosphere Action Group who tasked themselves with trying to facilitate a designated singing section within the stadium for those who wanted to vociferously cheer on City on a matchday. For their home FA Cup tie with Tottenham Hotspur FC in January 2004, the club agreed to turn 100 seats over to the Atmosphere Action Group, where two blocks of seats were indeed designated as a singing section. Where at Maine Road the stadium had four very distinct and different geographically separated stands with identities all of their own, the City of Manchester Stadium has been designed in the style of the now ubiquitous circular bowl. Where City fans at Maine Road would have known where to congregate if they wanted a more vociferous spectating experience (the Kippax, the North Stand, etc), the new stadium can be seen to suffer from having no real identity attached to its four similarly designed stands. The Colin Bell Stand (West Stand), Key 103 Stand (South Stand), Family Stand (North Stand) and the East Stand have no cultural meanings as geographical spaces compared to the historically charged Kippax, Main Stand, North Stand and Platt Lane End at Maine Road. In an attempt to try to create an identity at the City of Manchester Stadium, the East Stand was even unofficially named the ‘Kippax’ by some City fans after the corresponding stand at Maine Road. With the Kippax name so synonymous with Manchester City FC, this attempt by some supporters to create a forced identity within the new stadium speaks volumes about the lack of place attachment, and a need to bring the ‘old’ to the ‘new’ within the stadium space. Manchester City fans who watched City play at Maine Road could be quite proprietorial about their particular area of the ground, whether you were a Kippaxite or a North Stander, an identity which appears to be lacking within the new City of Manchester Stadium space.
Another interesting angle to the discussion on the stadium and a sense of place through an analysis of Manchester City fans and the City of Manchester Stadium can be raised through the issue of stadium regulation and control and how this can impinge upon spectator behaviour and football fan culture. Early on in City's tenure of the stadium, it can be documented that some City fans were actually ejected from the ground itself, with some even having their season tickets taken away from them, for standing up during matches and trying to create an atmosphere within the stadium. Indeed with reference to one particular game in 2004, Atmosphere Action Group founder-member Simon Cooper stated that ‘the pubs close to the stadium were heaving before we played Spurs, but many fans stayed where they were during the game because they could sing and use a bit of colourful language without them being ejected’.18Through what can be described as heavy-handed stewarding and a more sanitized experience encountered inside the stadium, it is interesting that it is the local public houses in the vicinity of the City of Manchester Stadium which are mentioned as being the public social space where aspects of traditional fan culture are allowed to be played out, away from the space of the live event and the stadium itself.
In reference to the experience of visiting the stadium, one City supporter on the City fans forum site states that, ‘the stadium is sterile, homogenised, it has no soul. Everyone is sat down, it's like a Cliff Richards [sic] gig. No smoking, no drinking, no swearing. Maine Road was like a Happy Mondays gig, atmosphere, character.’19 The analogy between watching City play at their former historical ground of Maine Road and enjoying a performance by the Happy Mondays, the mancunian band who were part of the ‘Madchester’ scene of the late 1980s and early 1990s, is an interesting one. Maine Road can be understood here as being one of carnival/music/atmosphere, whilst the City of Manchester Stadium experience is seen as being regulated/sanitized/characterless. Through an analysis of various Manchester City FC supporters' websites and fans forum sites it is apparent that the homogeneity of the new stadium, and the lack of visual appeal contained within, is of real concern to City fans who appear to appreciate difference over sameness in architectural design and the importance of the sensory aspect to the stadium and a sense of place. One City supporter stated that, compared to the City of Manchester Stadium, ‘Maine Road was more … personal. Obviously because it was the place we all grew up with City. The stadium itself was a real mish-mash of designs, but that's what gave it character.’ The same supporter also stated that with regards to the new stadium, they found it ‘very hard to get used to the symmetry of the place and the neatness of the concourses’. In addition to the physical architectural design of the new stadium, and furthering the importance given to the visual dimension to the stadium, an analysis of City fans' comments also show a disappointment that the letters M.C.F.C are not emblazoned across seats which it was deemed would help to instil some sort of identity to the geographical space and define the space as ‘City's’.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Part 3
In reaction to the disappointment felt by many City fans with regards to the new stadium experience, what has been an interesting and indeed significant development through this period of Manchester City FC trying to settle into their new home, whilst City fans have tried to re-negotiate their fandom within the new stadium and its environs, has been the introduction of ‘Bluewatch’, a Manchester City fans forum group which has been the first forum to have a dedicated social club of their own. Situated within Mary D's Beamish Bar on a matchday, a large pub which is just yards from the City of Manchester Stadium, this tribal gathering of City fans use the ‘Bluewatch Arms’ bar, located in the upstairs function room of Mary D's, to discuss the state of all things ‘sky blue’.
Bluewatch state that they are dedicated to enhancing the matchday atmosphere at the City of Manchester Stadium and it is through this social network of City fans who communicate through the forum and social club that initiatives have been organized and facilitated in order to heighten the stadium experience for those City fans who feel that something has been lost through the move to their new home. Mobility of the stadium has meant the loss of Maine Road and the erosion of elements of traditional football culture.20 Bluewatch proudly list their achievements to include: successfully asking the club to create a ‘singing section’ at the City of Manchester Stadium, which was indeed introduced into the South Stand Level 1 for the beginning of the 2007/08 season; succeeding in getting the club to put on a ‘scarf day’ for a derby match against city rivals Manchester United; getting the club to change the music played at the City of Manchester Stadium to include more Manchester-based bands; introducing banners and flags to the stadium to add colour to its inner spaces, whilst managing to get the club to review the stewarding policy at the stadium.
With reference to bringing the ‘old to the new’ within the stadium and its environs, the Bluewatch members within Mary D's can plan these various initiatives to improve the atmosphere at the City of Manchester Stadium whilst enjoying the visual delights of the ‘Maine City’ room which contains, amongst other things, a 60ft mural of City's old Maine Road Stadium, the club's traditional home for 80 years. Indeed in further reference to historical reminders of the club's past, the official Bluewatch emblem is unashamedly based upon Manchester City FC's traditional club badge, the one worn by the City greats of the 1960s and 1970s, conjuring up images of Messrs Lee, Summerbee and Bell and a packed Kippax terrace of 25,000 fans. Here then again we have a historical reminder to the club's past and time at Maine Road, and a visible reminder that Bluewatch is concerned with history and identity.
Bluewatch as an activated force can be seen to have been borne out of disappointment with, and in reaction to, Manchester City's new stadium, with a determination to improve the matchday experience for City fans. Whilst the placeless new stadium development can be recognized through its theoretical application and a geographical understanding of its neat concourses, rationalized space and more homogenized and standardized appearance, it is the power of the fans themselves through groups such as Bluewatch to influence the internal activities of the stadium itself, and how this is organized and facilitated in an attempt to help develop a sense of place, which becomes central in issues surrounding the appropriation of the sporting space and place of the stadium. It is through the issue of the fans themselves that the introduction of a singing section to the City of Manchester Stadium can be seen as important to the attempted creation of ‘place’ within the stadium. With this new sporting venue having no historical or cultural identity of its own, and in reaction to the stadium deemed as suffering from a lack of atmosphere, the creation of a singing section by the club following pressure from the fans sees the attempt to forge a created identity in a geographical space which is devoid of historical meaning and certainty. Whilst supporters may not be able to change the architectural geographies of the new stadiums, it is the definition of particular spaces of the stadium and the attaching of cultural meaning to them which may become increasingly important to the development of a sense of place as the ‘post-millennial’ supporter tries to re-negotiate their ‘post-fandom’21 within these unfamiliar new sporting spaces. Within increasingly rationalized sporting geographies, and the number of purpose-built new stadiums steadily rising, fan community groups such as Bluewatch, concerned with a loss of identity within the new stadium space will surely become more prevalent within football fan culture. In this technological age the online community can be brought together at the click of a button, whilst their group collectivity and public posturing within social spaces such as the public house can ensure a visible presence on a matchday. Whilst it needs to be recognized that professional football clubs have had independent supporters' association groups attached to them for many years to deliberate over important fan issues of the day, this specific community of supporters involved in improving the matchday experience within the relocated new stadium highlights the real concern over these type of developments.
In reaction to the disappointment felt by many City fans with regards to the new stadium experience, what has been an interesting and indeed significant development through this period of Manchester City FC trying to settle into their new home, whilst City fans have tried to re-negotiate their fandom within the new stadium and its environs, has been the introduction of ‘Bluewatch’, a Manchester City fans forum group which has been the first forum to have a dedicated social club of their own. Situated within Mary D's Beamish Bar on a matchday, a large pub which is just yards from the City of Manchester Stadium, this tribal gathering of City fans use the ‘Bluewatch Arms’ bar, located in the upstairs function room of Mary D's, to discuss the state of all things ‘sky blue’.
Bluewatch state that they are dedicated to enhancing the matchday atmosphere at the City of Manchester Stadium and it is through this social network of City fans who communicate through the forum and social club that initiatives have been organized and facilitated in order to heighten the stadium experience for those City fans who feel that something has been lost through the move to their new home. Mobility of the stadium has meant the loss of Maine Road and the erosion of elements of traditional football culture.20 Bluewatch proudly list their achievements to include: successfully asking the club to create a ‘singing section’ at the City of Manchester Stadium, which was indeed introduced into the South Stand Level 1 for the beginning of the 2007/08 season; succeeding in getting the club to put on a ‘scarf day’ for a derby match against city rivals Manchester United; getting the club to change the music played at the City of Manchester Stadium to include more Manchester-based bands; introducing banners and flags to the stadium to add colour to its inner spaces, whilst managing to get the club to review the stewarding policy at the stadium.
With reference to bringing the ‘old to the new’ within the stadium and its environs, the Bluewatch members within Mary D's can plan these various initiatives to improve the atmosphere at the City of Manchester Stadium whilst enjoying the visual delights of the ‘Maine City’ room which contains, amongst other things, a 60ft mural of City's old Maine Road Stadium, the club's traditional home for 80 years. Indeed in further reference to historical reminders of the club's past, the official Bluewatch emblem is unashamedly based upon Manchester City FC's traditional club badge, the one worn by the City greats of the 1960s and 1970s, conjuring up images of Messrs Lee, Summerbee and Bell and a packed Kippax terrace of 25,000 fans. Here then again we have a historical reminder to the club's past and time at Maine Road, and a visible reminder that Bluewatch is concerned with history and identity.
Bluewatch as an activated force can be seen to have been borne out of disappointment with, and in reaction to, Manchester City's new stadium, with a determination to improve the matchday experience for City fans. Whilst the placeless new stadium development can be recognized through its theoretical application and a geographical understanding of its neat concourses, rationalized space and more homogenized and standardized appearance, it is the power of the fans themselves through groups such as Bluewatch to influence the internal activities of the stadium itself, and how this is organized and facilitated in an attempt to help develop a sense of place, which becomes central in issues surrounding the appropriation of the sporting space and place of the stadium. It is through the issue of the fans themselves that the introduction of a singing section to the City of Manchester Stadium can be seen as important to the attempted creation of ‘place’ within the stadium. With this new sporting venue having no historical or cultural identity of its own, and in reaction to the stadium deemed as suffering from a lack of atmosphere, the creation of a singing section by the club following pressure from the fans sees the attempt to forge a created identity in a geographical space which is devoid of historical meaning and certainty. Whilst supporters may not be able to change the architectural geographies of the new stadiums, it is the definition of particular spaces of the stadium and the attaching of cultural meaning to them which may become increasingly important to the development of a sense of place as the ‘post-millennial’ supporter tries to re-negotiate their ‘post-fandom’21 within these unfamiliar new sporting spaces. Within increasingly rationalized sporting geographies, and the number of purpose-built new stadiums steadily rising, fan community groups such as Bluewatch, concerned with a loss of identity within the new stadium space will surely become more prevalent within football fan culture. In this technological age the online community can be brought together at the click of a button, whilst their group collectivity and public posturing within social spaces such as the public house can ensure a visible presence on a matchday. Whilst it needs to be recognized that professional football clubs have had independent supporters' association groups attached to them for many years to deliberate over important fan issues of the day, this specific community of supporters involved in improving the matchday experience within the relocated new stadium highlights the real concern over these type of developments.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Part 4
The issue of City supporters' identification with the space of the City of Manchester Stadium appears to permeate the whole of the new stadium development. However, there also needs to be a discussion of the wider rationale of the facility, understood through the issue of inclusion through the wider City community, if there is to be a more comprehensive picture gained and further the discussion in relation to the stadium and a sense of place.
Whilst a range of issues have clearly been raised through an analysis of the City of Manchester Stadium and a sense of place which relate to a dissatisfaction with the new stadium space and a lack of identity being felt within, there also needs to be an appreciation of how the new stadium itself has been received as one of inclusion. This is important to show how ‘other’ Manchester City fans have indeed championed the new stadium facility and how the general pining for all things Maine Road can be seen here to be reversed. The wider City community can then be incorporated into issues surrounding the stadium and a sense of place. In this context, it needs to be registered that the City of Manchester Stadium has won a number of design awards, including the 2004 Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) Inclusive Design Award for inclusivity in building design. This RIBA Inclusive Design Award in association with the Centre for Accessible Environments (CAE) and Allgood celebrates inclusivity in building design and demonstrates that good design results in environments that are safe, convenient and enjoyable to use by people, regardless of disability, age or gender. Arup Associates' Dipesh Patel, the lead architect for the City of Manchester Stadium project, argues that historically stadia have been particularly inhospitable places for older and disabled spectators and children. Arup Associates then have set out to design an environment that encourages all sectors of the community to enjoy and participate in sporting events.22 Throughout the entire design process of the new stadium development, from concept to the final modifications, the stadium architects, council and Manchester City FC worked in consultation with the access consultants Access All Areas, with the aim being to create the most accessible leisure and community facility in the country, catering for all sections of society.23 As part of the design process a series of seminars were held with the Manchester City FC Disabled Football Supporters Association to ensure that proposals were relevant to all needs. Whilst it can be argued that some areas of Maine Road had been rebuilt and modernized, the accessibility of that stadium, particularly for wheelchair users, was dismal in comparison with modern stadium venues. Through the importance placed on inclusion for the design and build of the facility, the City of Manchester Stadium has been designed so that on every level the seats are integrated so that wheelchair users remain a part of the crowd rather than separated from the atmosphere as is usually the case in sporting arenas. Wheelchair spaces are indeed located at all levels and price bands throughout the COMS, with the spaces being integrated into the main body of the seating which allows parties with both wheelchair users and non-wheelchair supporters to sit together.24 Nigel Baguley, Secretary of the Manchester City FC Disabled Supporters Association, argues that with regards to the City of Manchester Stadium, ‘it is the way that all future stadiums should be constructed, in catering for the needs of disabled supporters. I have been a Manchester City fan for forty years, and having encountered prehistoric amenities at some grounds, it is a real pleasure going to matches at this stadium.’25 With regards to the inclusiveness of the matchday experience he goes on to state that, ‘my place, like all the wheelchair spaces, is situated on a raised platform, just behind the able-bodied supporters, but because we are sat slightly higher than they are, our view is not obscured when they stand up, and because we are not in a “segregated area” I feel much more a part of the crowd, and the atmosphere’.26 Through an appreciation of the sentiments expressed by Nigel Baguley in relation to the issue of inclusion within the new stadium build, which includes this feeling of being part of the crowd and not part of a ‘segregated area’, the issue of the sense of place is raised from a different faction of the city support, which is not traditionally detailed and reported. Through an acceptance of looking at the geographical space of the stadium away from the traditionally represented fan communities, the position of the new stadium within a wider remit of social inclusion allows for a wider debate to be conducted regarding the stadium and a sense of place.
Through an analysis of the City of Manchester Stadium, there are a range of issues which are raised which allow the stadium and a sense of place to be explored through the new stadium build. Questions are raised on the multi-functional stadium facility and the City fans' sense of ownership of the stadium space due to its eclectic usage, whilst the naming of the stadium itself, both ‘officially’ and ‘non-officially’, has been noteworthy as the City supporters try to identify with the new sporting and cultural space. The splitting up and atomization of some groups of City fans within the new stadium, who had previously watched City play at their former home of Maine Road, also raises issues on the stadium and a sense of place as fans try to renegotiate their fandom within its inner spaces. The fact that an Atmosphere Action Group was formed in City's early tenure of the City of Manchester Stadium and the designation of a temporary ‘singing area’ within the stadium space displays a lack of identity felt by the supporters with the new stands themselves. The attempt to bring aspects of Maine Road to the new stadium development, in order to forge an identity, is also interesting as part of a general bringing of the old to the new within new stadium developments, both in Manchester and in other high profile stadium relocations that have taken place within the British professional football industry. It can be argued that with regards to the stadium and a sense of place, the visual dimension to the spectating experience still seems to be an important aspect to the stadium visitation, with supporters appreciating difference over sameness in architectural design, and other visual markers to identify the football club's presence within the stadium. The issue of the regulation and control of the stadium has also been seen to resonate through the analysis of the new stadium development. With the reports of heavy-handed stewarding and a more sanitized spectating experience perceived within the stadium, leading to some supporters turning to the public houses in the vicinity of the City of Manchester Stadium instead of the stadium itself to celebrate their fandom, another angle of investigation is then created. Rising out of this general disappointment with the new stadium facility, the fans' forum group Bluewatch which has been particularly concerned with improving the matchday atmosphere at the stadium can be seen to have been a central agency in trying to create a sense of place within the new City of Manchester Stadium. In reaction to a variety of issues including a lack of atmosphere, which did not appear to be growing organically within this new sporting space, the group's attempts to inject noise, colour and a sense of locality and identity to the new stadium proves a significant development in groups coping within football fan culture with change in the stadium. There is certainly a real concern over what has been lost through the move to the new sporting home, through the mobility of city cultures. Finally an analysis of this community facility which was built with a remit of social inclusion throws up questions regarding who exactly inhabits the stadium space, the question of marginalized supporter groups, as well as other areas of investigation into the stadium and a sense of place.
Through this analysis of Manchester City FC and issues surrounding the club's relocation to the City of Manchester Stadium, the issue of sporting tophilia is then brought to life. In this ‘post-millennial’ context of locational and geographical change, which has taken place through a range of high profile relocations in British professional football, the eclectic space and place of the stadium is there to be redoubtably explored. With many more clubs certain to leave their traditional and historical stadiums to take up residence within purpose-built new homes in the years to come, with the current trend to relocate showing no signs of slowing down, it really is a matter of ‘watch this sporting space’.
The issue of City supporters' identification with the space of the City of Manchester Stadium appears to permeate the whole of the new stadium development. However, there also needs to be a discussion of the wider rationale of the facility, understood through the issue of inclusion through the wider City community, if there is to be a more comprehensive picture gained and further the discussion in relation to the stadium and a sense of place.
Whilst a range of issues have clearly been raised through an analysis of the City of Manchester Stadium and a sense of place which relate to a dissatisfaction with the new stadium space and a lack of identity being felt within, there also needs to be an appreciation of how the new stadium itself has been received as one of inclusion. This is important to show how ‘other’ Manchester City fans have indeed championed the new stadium facility and how the general pining for all things Maine Road can be seen here to be reversed. The wider City community can then be incorporated into issues surrounding the stadium and a sense of place. In this context, it needs to be registered that the City of Manchester Stadium has won a number of design awards, including the 2004 Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) Inclusive Design Award for inclusivity in building design. This RIBA Inclusive Design Award in association with the Centre for Accessible Environments (CAE) and Allgood celebrates inclusivity in building design and demonstrates that good design results in environments that are safe, convenient and enjoyable to use by people, regardless of disability, age or gender. Arup Associates' Dipesh Patel, the lead architect for the City of Manchester Stadium project, argues that historically stadia have been particularly inhospitable places for older and disabled spectators and children. Arup Associates then have set out to design an environment that encourages all sectors of the community to enjoy and participate in sporting events.22 Throughout the entire design process of the new stadium development, from concept to the final modifications, the stadium architects, council and Manchester City FC worked in consultation with the access consultants Access All Areas, with the aim being to create the most accessible leisure and community facility in the country, catering for all sections of society.23 As part of the design process a series of seminars were held with the Manchester City FC Disabled Football Supporters Association to ensure that proposals were relevant to all needs. Whilst it can be argued that some areas of Maine Road had been rebuilt and modernized, the accessibility of that stadium, particularly for wheelchair users, was dismal in comparison with modern stadium venues. Through the importance placed on inclusion for the design and build of the facility, the City of Manchester Stadium has been designed so that on every level the seats are integrated so that wheelchair users remain a part of the crowd rather than separated from the atmosphere as is usually the case in sporting arenas. Wheelchair spaces are indeed located at all levels and price bands throughout the COMS, with the spaces being integrated into the main body of the seating which allows parties with both wheelchair users and non-wheelchair supporters to sit together.24 Nigel Baguley, Secretary of the Manchester City FC Disabled Supporters Association, argues that with regards to the City of Manchester Stadium, ‘it is the way that all future stadiums should be constructed, in catering for the needs of disabled supporters. I have been a Manchester City fan for forty years, and having encountered prehistoric amenities at some grounds, it is a real pleasure going to matches at this stadium.’25 With regards to the inclusiveness of the matchday experience he goes on to state that, ‘my place, like all the wheelchair spaces, is situated on a raised platform, just behind the able-bodied supporters, but because we are sat slightly higher than they are, our view is not obscured when they stand up, and because we are not in a “segregated area” I feel much more a part of the crowd, and the atmosphere’.26 Through an appreciation of the sentiments expressed by Nigel Baguley in relation to the issue of inclusion within the new stadium build, which includes this feeling of being part of the crowd and not part of a ‘segregated area’, the issue of the sense of place is raised from a different faction of the city support, which is not traditionally detailed and reported. Through an acceptance of looking at the geographical space of the stadium away from the traditionally represented fan communities, the position of the new stadium within a wider remit of social inclusion allows for a wider debate to be conducted regarding the stadium and a sense of place.
Through an analysis of the City of Manchester Stadium, there are a range of issues which are raised which allow the stadium and a sense of place to be explored through the new stadium build. Questions are raised on the multi-functional stadium facility and the City fans' sense of ownership of the stadium space due to its eclectic usage, whilst the naming of the stadium itself, both ‘officially’ and ‘non-officially’, has been noteworthy as the City supporters try to identify with the new sporting and cultural space. The splitting up and atomization of some groups of City fans within the new stadium, who had previously watched City play at their former home of Maine Road, also raises issues on the stadium and a sense of place as fans try to renegotiate their fandom within its inner spaces. The fact that an Atmosphere Action Group was formed in City's early tenure of the City of Manchester Stadium and the designation of a temporary ‘singing area’ within the stadium space displays a lack of identity felt by the supporters with the new stands themselves. The attempt to bring aspects of Maine Road to the new stadium development, in order to forge an identity, is also interesting as part of a general bringing of the old to the new within new stadium developments, both in Manchester and in other high profile stadium relocations that have taken place within the British professional football industry. It can be argued that with regards to the stadium and a sense of place, the visual dimension to the spectating experience still seems to be an important aspect to the stadium visitation, with supporters appreciating difference over sameness in architectural design, and other visual markers to identify the football club's presence within the stadium. The issue of the regulation and control of the stadium has also been seen to resonate through the analysis of the new stadium development. With the reports of heavy-handed stewarding and a more sanitized spectating experience perceived within the stadium, leading to some supporters turning to the public houses in the vicinity of the City of Manchester Stadium instead of the stadium itself to celebrate their fandom, another angle of investigation is then created. Rising out of this general disappointment with the new stadium facility, the fans' forum group Bluewatch which has been particularly concerned with improving the matchday atmosphere at the stadium can be seen to have been a central agency in trying to create a sense of place within the new City of Manchester Stadium. In reaction to a variety of issues including a lack of atmosphere, which did not appear to be growing organically within this new sporting space, the group's attempts to inject noise, colour and a sense of locality and identity to the new stadium proves a significant development in groups coping within football fan culture with change in the stadium. There is certainly a real concern over what has been lost through the move to the new sporting home, through the mobility of city cultures. Finally an analysis of this community facility which was built with a remit of social inclusion throws up questions regarding who exactly inhabits the stadium space, the question of marginalized supporter groups, as well as other areas of investigation into the stadium and a sense of place.
Through this analysis of Manchester City FC and issues surrounding the club's relocation to the City of Manchester Stadium, the issue of sporting tophilia is then brought to life. In this ‘post-millennial’ context of locational and geographical change, which has taken place through a range of high profile relocations in British professional football, the eclectic space and place of the stadium is there to be redoubtably explored. With many more clubs certain to leave their traditional and historical stadiums to take up residence within purpose-built new homes in the years to come, with the current trend to relocate showing no signs of slowing down, it really is a matter of ‘watch this sporting space’.
Davideeyore
Player Valuation: £30m
I'm no expert although it's just a thought they are the 2018 version. The south stand rake the real construction, looks very steep to me.
Mate you're trying too hard - reign it in a bit.
Maybe try putting NSNO after every post?
cba reading that @davek and your still no match for the mighty @catcherintherye posts!!!