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2021/22 Rafael Benitez

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Saint Domingo said:
We’re also 5 points off 6th though.

There’s still more than enough time this season to get safely into the top half (which really is the upper limit of what these players can achieve), and the likes of Newcastle Norwich Watford and Burnley are looking very poor. Alarm bells won’t be ringing anywhere other than the fan base,
Click to expand...

He did say the 'wait for the 2nd half of the season' line again earlier though mate.

All other things aside, that's not on. At all. Because he's the manager and we need results now. It's fine for fans to say 'it'll be alright when the players come back' but a manager cannot think like that because they have to be prepared for the worst and to adapt.

Benitez has had 3 months to adapt to no DCL - he hasn't done
He had over a month to adapt to no Doucoure and realise a midfield three is needed even with Doucoure in there - he hasn't done that.
 
Saint Domingo said:
We’re also 5 points off 6th though.

There’s still more than enough time this season to get safely into the top half (which really is the upper limit of what these players can achieve), and the likes of Newcastle Norwich Watford and Burnley are looking very poor. Alarm bells won’t be ringing anywhere other than the fan base,
Click to expand...

If there are not alarm bells going off higher up with this run of results that would be extremely worrying
 
BlueToff said:
He did say the 'wait for the 2nd half of the season' line again earlier though mate.

All other things aside, that's not on. At all. Because he's the manager and we need results now. It's fine for fans to say 'it'll be alright when the players come back' but a manager cannot think like that because they have to be prepared for the worst and to adapt.

Benitez has had 3 months to adapt to no DCL - he hasn't done
He had over a month to adapt to no Doucoure and realise a midfield three is needed even with Doucoure in there - he hasn't done that.
Click to expand...

That’s because you can’t. This is what I keep saying. Adapt to no Docuoure? With what options? Gomes and Davies aren’t for and even if they were they’re both completely and utterly useless. Gbamin was tried and that lasted all of 45 minutes. So it’s been Allan and Delph and they’ve not got the legs.

DCL is out so we move Richarlison upfront and try and play on the counter, which is difficult to do when you have a midfield that can’t win the ball back. Then Richarlison gets suspended.

It’s such an easy throw away line ‘he should have adapted’. Koeman didn’t adapt to losing Lukaku, Silva didn’t adapt to losing Gueye and Zouma, Ancelotti was pretty much useless without Doucoure, yet we expect Benitez to find solutions to not having Mina Docoure Richarlison DCL Gray and to find them even when the rubbish supporting cast is also often injured. Blimey even Conte didn’t adapt to losing Costa and Matic. In fact there’s not many managers who adapt very well when you take their best players away from them.

There are no solutions in the squad. Every formation has been tried by every manager multiple times with multiple variants and combinations. No manager can escape the fact that Coleman can’t handle a football, Keane can’t concentrate for 90 minutes and can’t move outside of a 6 yard area, Digne can’t defend one on one, Gomes and Davies can’t run, Iwobi can’t do anything, none of the midfield can create, only Doucoure can possibly travel with it, and only DCL and Richarlison can put a ball in the net.

These are the tools Benitez had and he’s been deprived of most of them. There is no adapting, this group of players without its best players will lose a lot of football matches because they’re very bad. Thats the harsh truth that fans seem unwilling to accept. Even under Ancelotti who was very good tactically, Rochdale dominated us at Goodison, loads of bottom half teams ran through us with ease at Goodison, and that was with fully fit teams at times.

This is not a good group, even fully fit, and when you take out the best players it’s one of the worst groups in the league, seriously I look at players for teams like Watford and Newcastle and I think some of them walk into our first team and definitely into our squad, and they are two of the relegation favourites.

There is no making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, we don’t have a divine right to beat any team in this league with these players. We are in a bottom half scrap and fans need to get used to this, the writing has been on the wall for years but we just kept blaming manager after manager.

Ever player in this squad is not good enough to challenge the European places apart from Pickford Mina (when fit) Godfrey (maybe) Allan Doucoure DCL Richarlison and maybe Gray. If they’re not fully fit or on form then forget it also. Perhaps some kids like Gordon and Branthwaite may join this group in time. Everyone else is nowhere near the standard needed. Most are bottom half premier league players, some wouldn’t get into any other premier league team.

Would Watford take Davies Gomes Gbamin when they have Sissoko Cleverley Capoue. Would anyone take Kenny? How many premier league sides does Michael Keane start for, how many would Holgate play for? Iwobi, Townsend ( I like the bloke but still the question stands)

These are not good players. They are hugely overrated by a large portion of the fan base. Changing the manager will do nothing to change this fact. Only sustained investment or very clever player trading and recruitment will get us out of this mess.
 
BlueToff said:
He did say the 'wait for the 2nd half of the season' line again earlier though mate.

All other things aside, that's not on. At all. Because he's the manager and we need results now. It's fine for fans to say 'it'll be alright when the players come back' but a manager cannot think like that because they have to be prepared for the worst and to adapt.

Benitez has had 3 months to adapt to no DCL - he hasn't done
He had over a month to adapt to no Doucoure and realise a midfield three is needed even with Doucoure in there - he hasn't done that.
Click to expand...

I read somewhere that his teams tend to do better second half of the season.

Perhaps hes also alluding to that.

Who knows lol
 
Saint Domingo said:
That’s because you can’t. This is what I keep saying. Adapt to no Docuoure? With what options? Gomes and Davies aren’t for and even if they were they’re both completely and utterly useless. Gbamin was tried and that lasted all of 45 minutes. So it’s been Allan and Delph and they’ve not got the legs.

DCL is out so we move Richarlison upfront and try and play on the counter, which is difficult to do when you have a midfield that can’t win the ball back. Then Richarlison gets suspended.

It’s such an easy throw away line ‘he should have adapted’. Koeman didn’t adapt to losing Lukaku, Silva didn’t adapt to losing Gueye and Zouma, Ancelotti was pretty much useless without Doucoure, yet we expect Benitez to find solutions to not having Mina Docoure Richarlison DCL Gray and to find them even when the rubbish supporting cast is also often injured. Blimey even Conte didn’t adapt to losing Costa and Matic. In fact there’s not many managers who adapt very well when you take their best players away from them.

There are no solutions in the squad. Every formation has been tried by every manager multiple times with multiple variants and combinations. No manager can escape the fact that Coleman can’t handle a football, Keane can’t concentrate for 90 minutes and can’t move outside of a 6 yard area, Digne can’t defend one on one, Gomes and Davies can’t run, Iwobi can’t do anything, none of the midfield can create, only Doucoure can possibly travel with it, and only DCL and Richarlison can put a ball in the net.

These are the tools Benitez had and he’s been deprived of most of them. There is no adapting, this group of players without its best players will lose a lot of football matches because they’re very bad. Thats the harsh truth that fans seem unwilling to accept. Even under Ancelotti who was very good tactically, Rochdale dominated us at Goodison, loads of bottom half teams ran through us with ease at Goodison, and that was with fully fit teams at times.

This is not a good group, even fully fit, and when you take out the best players it’s one of the worst groups in the league, seriously I look at players for teams like Watford and Newcastle and I think some of them walk into our first team and definitely into our squad, and they are two of the relegation favourites.

There is no making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, we don’t have a divine right to beat any team in this league with these players. We are in a bottom half scrap and fans need to get used to this, the writing has been on the wall for years but we just kept blaming manager after manager.

Ever player in this squad is not good enough to challenge the European places apart from Pickford Mina (when fit) Godfrey (maybe) Allan Doucoure DCL Richarlison and maybe Gray. If they’re not fully fit or on form then forget it also. Perhaps some kids like Gordon and Branthwaite may join this group in time. Everyone else is nowhere near the standard needed. Most are bottom half premier league players, some wouldn’t get into any other premier league team.

Would Watford take Davies Gomes Gbamin when they have Sissoko Cleverley Capoue. Would anyone take Kenny? How many premier league sides does Michael Keane start for, how many would Holgate play for? Iwobi, Townsend ( I like the bloke but still the question stands)

These are not good players. They are hugely overrated by a large portion of the fan base. Changing the manager will do nothing to change this fact. Only sustained investment or very clever player trading and recruitment will get us out of this mess.
Click to expand...

Man for man are you saying that Watford and Brentford have better players than Benitez put on the pitch against them?
 

Saint Domingo said:
That’s because you can’t. This is what I keep saying. Adapt to no Docuoure? With what options? Gomes and Davies aren’t for and even if they were they’re both completely and utterly useless. Gbamin was tried and that lasted all of 45 minutes. So it’s been Allan and Delph and they’ve not got the legs.

DCL is out so we move Richarlison upfront and try and play on the counter, which is difficult to do when you have a midfield that can’t win the ball back. Then Richarlison gets suspended.

It’s such an easy throw away line ‘he should have adapted’. Koeman didn’t adapt to losing Lukaku, Silva didn’t adapt to losing Gueye and Zouma, Ancelotti was pretty much useless without Doucoure, yet we expect Benitez to find solutions to not having Mina Docoure Richarlison DCL Gray and to find them even when the rubbish supporting cast is also often injured. Blimey even Conte didn’t adapt to losing Costa and Matic. In fact there’s not many managers who adapt very well when you take their best players away from them.

There are no solutions in the squad. Every formation has been tried by every manager multiple times with multiple variants and combinations. No manager can escape the fact that Coleman can’t handle a football, Keane can’t concentrate for 90 minutes and can’t move outside of a 6 yard area, Digne can’t defend one on one, Gomes and Davies can’t run, Iwobi can’t do anything, none of the midfield can create, only Doucoure can possibly travel with it, and only DCL and Richarlison can put a ball in the net.

These are the tools Benitez had and he’s been deprived of most of them. There is no adapting, this group of players without its best players will lose a lot of football matches because they’re very bad. Thats the harsh truth that fans seem unwilling to accept. Even under Ancelotti who was very good tactically, Rochdale dominated us at Goodison, loads of bottom half teams ran through us with ease at Goodison, and that was with fully fit teams at times.

This is not a good group, even fully fit, and when you take out the best players it’s one of the worst groups in the league, seriously I look at players for teams like Watford and Newcastle and I think some of them walk into our first team and definitely into our squad, and they are two of the relegation favourites.

There is no making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, we don’t have a divine right to beat any team in this league with these players. We are in a bottom half scrap and fans need to get used to this, the writing has been on the wall for years but we just kept blaming manager after manager.

Ever player in this squad is not good enough to challenge the European places apart from Pickford Mina (when fit) Godfrey (maybe) Allan Doucoure DCL Richarlison and maybe Gray. If they’re not fully fit or on form then forget it also. Perhaps some kids like Gordon and Branthwaite may join this group in time. Everyone else is nowhere near the standard needed. Most are bottom half premier league players, some wouldn’t get into any other premier league team.

Would Watford take Davies Gomes Gbamin when they have Sissoko Cleverley Capoue. Would anyone take Kenny? How many premier league sides does Michael Keane start for, how many would Holgate play for? Iwobi, Townsend ( I like the bloke but still the question stands)

These are not good players. They are hugely overrated by a large portion of the fan base. Changing the manager will do nothing to change this fact. Only sustained investment or very clever player trading and recruitment will get us out of this mess.
Click to expand...
You adapt to no Doucoure by realising you cannot play a two-man midfield without him. It's not perfect (but neither is the two-man midfield with Doucoure as seen the other day) but you realise that you have to change shape if a certain player isn't fit.

It's like how we've played Rondon. I mean, he's crap, but we've treated him like he's DCL and can do everything DCL can. He can't. We need to play to his strength which is, as we did actually see a bit v Brentford, getting the ball into him in the box either aerially or to feet. For that, our best crosser in Digne should not have been told to stay behind the halfway line until about a week ago, mate. It's like putting Richarlison central, then lumping long balls up to him instead of trying to play in the channels. See what we did v Burnley for an ideal example. And then fans go 'oh isn't Richie crap up top lad'. No, he's just a different type of striker to DCL so we can't be playing that same way, you have to adapt (and Ancelotti struggled with this too I know).

You are acting like it is impossible to change. It is not. Loads of teams have injuries, loads have bad players. Managers have to adapt and change. It doesn't mean they completely change their style, you just fit a system to the players that are available.

Benitez came in with a clear plan to counter-attack. But you cannot, you simply cannot, have only one way of playing unless you are so, so good at that way at playing that every player in your squad is unbelievable at it and drilled into it - see Man City and Liverpool. Even Chelsea do not have that yet, which is why Tuchel has had to switch things up a bit this season too.

You've said 'every player in this squad isn't good enough to challenge for Europe' and then named the majority of the first team.

Look at the squads around us, the majority of those players aren't good enough to challenge for Europe by your logic. West Ham - a team that got 6th and are up there atm - have 9-10 very good players and then a decent squad but they aren't incredible mate.
 
@Saint Domingo - my Richarlison example there, good timing



Now I know James isn't here and it's not on Rafael that our only other 'playmaker' who could play a ball like that is currently on police bail.

But I've seen Ben Godfrey play a pass like that to DCL v West Ham. I've seen plenty of players less talented than our current lot and James and the bloke we can't mention being able to play a through-ball. I covered the Copa final the other day and Palmeiras just played constant throughballs behind the lines for their Richarlison-like striker to run onto.

But to get those passes played you have to be up the pitch and able to keep the ball a bit. Our players can't. Yes, they weren't great at it last season and I acknowledge that, but they've genuinely got poorer at it, because there is such a lack of composure and then to boot, any idea what they have to do when they do get into the final third, as we saw in the 2nd half v Brentford.

That is on the manager because it is his job, that he gets paid a lot of money for, to coach the players day in, day out. To work on attacking moves and defensive moves, set-pieces and all of it. That is literally his job. So when the players out on the pitch look totally clueless, he takes his share of the blame.

And, that last paragraph is what I reiterated consistently about Ancelotti from March to May last season, too, btw.
 
Zatara said:
Man for man are you saying that Watford and Brentford have better players than Benitez put on the pitch against them?
Click to expand...

Not every player but some of them yes. Let’s be honest we dominated Brentford but just couldn’t score and threw a goal away. They wouldn’t have scored any other way.

By your logic though Chelsea and City would never lose a single game to anyone. Football doesn’t work like that. One a one off a weaker team can beat a stronger team but over the course of a season the teams tend to finish in the right place.

A question for you, what ranking do you think our squad is? For me it’s:

Chelsea
City
United
Liverpool
Arsenal
Spurs
West Ham
Leicester
Aston Villa
Wolves
Everton

In my view we have the 11th best squad in the league this season. I’d expect us to finish around there if everyone is fit. Losing DCL for almost half a season and long absences to Mina Docuoure and Richarlison just drags us further down that list with maybe a team like Palace edging ahead of us.

I know people see it differently though and expect us to push for Europe. I just don’t see us anywhere near that with these players. So we can talk about how we should have beaten Watford or Brentford or Rondon this, or he should play a three in midfield or whatever the latest gripe is. It barely matters. If we overperform we’ll be top ten, if we underperform we’ll be the lower end of the table. We’ll probably end up being 10-12th though, which is where we’ve been the last two seasons.

Most people know this. They just see an opportunity to get Benitez out and want to take it. That’s fair enough and I can see why, but let’s not pretend that it’s because of the managers tactical choices or his signings, it’s just because people didn’t want him. The end result this season is most likely to not be any different.
 

Saint Domingo said:
Not every player but some of them yes. Let’s be honest we dominated Brentford but just couldn’t score and threw a goal away. They wouldn’t have scored any other way.

By your logic though Chelsea and City would never lose a single game to anyone. Football doesn’t work like that. One a one off a weaker team can beat a stronger team but over the course of a season the teams tend to finish in the right place.

A question for you, what ranking do you think our squad is? For me it’s:

Chelsea
City
United
Liverpool
Arsenal
Spurs
West Ham
Leicester
Aston Villa
Wolves
Everton

In my view we have the 11th best squad in the league this season. I’d expect us to finish around there if everyone is fit. Losing DCL for almost half a season and long absences to Mina Docuoure and Richarlison just drags us further down that list with maybe a team like Palace edging ahead of us.

I know people see it differently though and expect us to push for Europe. I just don’t see us anywhere near that with these players. So we can talk about how we should have beaten Watford or Brentford or Rondon this, or he should play a three in midfield or whatever the latest gripe is. It barely matters. If we overperform we’ll be top ten, if we underperform we’ll be the lower end of the table. We’ll probably end up being 10-12th though, which is where we’ve been the last two seasons.

Most people know this. They just see an opportunity to get Benitez out and want to take it. That’s fair enough and I can see why, but let’s not pretend that it’s because of the managers tactical choices or his signings, it’s just because people didn’t want him. The end result this season is most likely to not be any different.
Click to expand...

I dont think we "dominated" Brentford at all.

I would say our 1st eleven is 5th or 6th best in the league bar Coleman and Townsend.
 
BlueToff said:
You adapt to no Doucoure by realising you cannot play a two-man midfield without him. It's not perfect (but neither is the two-man midfield with Doucoure as seen the other day) but you realise that you have to change shape if a certain player isn't fit.

It's like how we've played Rondon. I mean, he's crap, but we've treated him like he's DCL and can do everything DCL can. He can't. We need to play to his strength which is, as we did actually see a bit v Brentford, getting the ball into him in the box either aerially or to feet. For that, our best crosser in Digne should not have been told to stay behind the halfway line until about a week ago, mate. It's like putting Richarlison central, then lumping long balls up to him instead of trying to play in the channels. See what we did v Burnley for an ideal example. And then fans go 'oh isn't Richie crap up top lad'. No, he's just a different type of striker to DCL so we can't be playing that same way, you have to adapt (and Ancelotti struggled with this too I know).

You are acting like it is impossible to change. It is not. Loads of teams have injuries, loads have bad players. Managers have to adapt and change. It doesn't mean they completely change their style, you just fit a system to the players that are available.

Benitez came in with a clear plan to counter-attack. But you cannot, you simply cannot, have only one way of playing unless you are so, so good at that way at playing that every player in your squad is unbelievable at it and drilled into it - see Man City and Liverpool. Even Chelsea do not have that yet, which is why Tuchel has had to switch things up a bit this season too.

You've said 'every player in this squad isn't good enough to challenge for Europe' and then named the majority of the first team.

Look at the squads around us, the majority of those players aren't good enough to challenge for Europe by your logic. West Ham - a team that got 6th and are up there atm - have 9-10 very good players and then a decent squad but they aren't incredible mate.
Click to expand...

I actually was doubtful about Benitez but I was trying to be patient because the decision was made and I want to back my club. With the opening 7 games, we were quite decent although there are some weakness to iron out. But after our winless 6 games, I can see Benitez is very stubborn.

That is his biggest weakness...which is why he doesn't make the necessarily changes to adapt. You know what - I can understand why he would elect to start experience over youth - most managers do, heck, even Carlo did that. But when things aren't working out (like against Brentford) and youth are your only options to switch things up, at least try. I think us fans are intelligent enough to understand the injuries plight and thin squad...
 

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