Record against Liverpool compared to the rest of the top 6

[longers]

It's just mentality. We basically never turn up.

I actually think it's a bit unfair to blame Moyes too. Yes, we got notably worse under him because of his negativity, but Everton have had an inferiority complex against the RS well since the 70s.

It's not going to change overnight. Koeman would have learned more about the character of some of our players in that loss you would hope - it's time to shift the perennial "nice boys" out of the club and bring in winners.

If we've had it since the 70s I'd argue it's never going to go

 

[Brendan Janus]

Inferiority complex !!

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

Inferior players do tend to have an inferiority complex.

The club has barely won an away game at a top club in 20 years. The run against United only ended when Ferguson appointed a clueless successor completely out of his depth. Outside that one off, what's the total record against United, RS, Arse and Chelsea over 20 years?

It's down to talent. We have been devoid of any top talent (bar a raw Rooney for 2 seasons) in that whole time. Jags can call himself a winner 5000 times a day, won't change the fact he will get turned inside out when faced with Suarez. David Weir was a model pro, didn't help him when Owen ran at him.

We are underdogs every time we have played those 80 odd games. You can't "bottle" something when you are underdogs, or put it down to a "weak mentality" when you are facing players that are more talented than you.

 

[EFC78]

What the OP is overlooking is the other top six teams are not playing Everton in a derby, they aren't up for it like Liverpool are. The others treat Everton like midtable opposition that we are, and they can sometimes slip up for doing so. The RS meanwhile never have such complacency...what with it being a derby. Therefore of the top six only the RS match us for workrate and desire, and with their greater quality that pushes them over the top.

We have never had better quality players than them in my lifetime. They have had a succession of Owen, Torres, Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho and Mane as their attacking players. We have had Bent, Beattie, Johnson, Osman. They have had Gerrard in midfield supplying the ammunition for most of that time. We had Phil Neville stinking out the place. They had Xabi Alonso pulling the strings, we had Arteta. If you are constantly comng up against a downgrade chances are you are going to do better. Davy Weir vs Owen is asking for the inevitable, Jagielka up against Suarez...no-one can be surprised at what follows. Jags is as committed as anyone, but you stick him up against an infinitely more talented player there ain't a damn thing he can do but suffer, as he routinely did.

We match them for effort (often overdo it out of frustration at how the game is panning out and become wreckless), what we lack is quality.

Appreciate what you are saying, but why do we never make our threat count? Lukaku up against Lovren etc. Lukaku was the highest valued player on the pitch and the top scorer in the league. They had an ageing Milner playing out of his favoured position on his weaker foot at left back sticking the ball out of play at the first sign of pressure, and we didn't expose him.

The sooner we go out there against them and the rest of the top 6 with the intention of taking the game to them, the sooner we will get a favourable result in my opinion.

There were quite a few on here saying before the game that if we went at Liverpool we'd be punished. We played cautiously with 3 centre halves and we still got put to the sword and conceded 3. Similarly, when we went to Spurs and Koeman worried far too much about what could potentially happen, we also lost and conceded 3. I'd sooner we actually went in to these games trying to go at them from the start and if we got beat then the outcome would have been no different.

 

[WycombeToffee]

We've done the double over the RS just once since 1965. That was when we won the league in 1984/85. It is a long term thing. They've done it 10 times in that period.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

 

[Ernie]

Inferior players do tend to have an inferiority complex.

The club has barely won an away game at a top club in 20 years. The run against United only ended when Ferguson appointed a clueless successor completely out of his depth. Outside that one off, what's the total record against United, RS, Arse and Chelsea over 20 years?

It's down to talent. We have been devoid of any top talent (bar a raw Rooney for 2 seasons) in that whole time. Jags can call himself a winner 5000 times a day, won't change the fact he will get turned inside out when faced with Suarez. David Weir was a model pro, didn't help him when Owen ran at him.

We are underdogs every time we have played those 80 odd games. You can't "bottle" something when you are underdogs, or put it down to a "weak mentality" when you are facing players that are more talented than you.

Why though

Plenty of mid table clubs win away at the top 5

 

[DanEFC92]

Why though

Plenty of mid table clubs win away at the top 5

Steve Kean's Blackburn beat United at Old Trafford ffs.

 

[Ernie]

Steve Kean's Blackburn beat United at Old Trafford ffs.

The money excuse get lashed about a lot, Even by me ffs

It's all crap though, loads of bottom half sides win away games at big grounds

 

[GwladysBlue]

Koeman could become the first manager to win three straight away games at Old Trafford.

That means that Southampton have won back-to-back away games at Man Utd. His record will go to s*** tomorrow now that he is managing the perennial bottlers.

 

[maccavennie]

Steve Kean's Blackburn beat United at Old Trafford ffs.

imo Dan, the reason why crap teams go to places like Annfield and Old Trafford and win is because the home side set up differently against the inferior opposition and in turn when the crap opposition actually fashion a chance, they have a great chance to score. Problem with us is that we are neither a top side or a crap side, we tend to be a tough side to beat at home and in the last 20 years we've got a fair few draws away from home but never turned them into wins. I can remember a couple of times we should have picked up away wins at Chelsea, should have beat Arsenal when we drew 2-2 ( Pienaar boss goal) and I thought we were the better side ( 1-1 ) when Del slotted the equaliser.

Against the rs though, apart from the 2-2 ( Distin and Beckford about 4 or 5 years ago ) and a couple of draws, I've got to go back nearly 20 years since I last thought we even put up anything resembling giving them a match and winning..

to summarise, we are a gang of muppets when it comes to playing the rs

 

[joseph]

The sad thing is that we've played some really mediocre Liverpool sides over the past few years and still failed to beat them. If it was their teams of the 80's or 90's I could understand. We need more big game players. Players who turn up and shine, play out of their skin in these games. Not choose to have their off day in the biggest game of the season. Robles looked like he had a f***** stroke for their 3rd goal

 

[Librarian]

It looks to me he's here to set up a stadium scheme that costs him and his boss nothing and they stand in a number of ways to profit from it.

The squad? More stories about mega deals being *that* close to tying up - the ones Lukaku mentioned about.

As I see it, he has the summer months to hold off a backlash.

He keeps his pot of gold always at the end of the rainbow

 

[James Patrick]

Is it really worth beating ourselves up over this ? Spurs have got 2 points more than us against the other 5 teams above us and they're 2nd.
The simple answer over the long term is better players and more of them so when we get injuries, suspensions, loss of form we can bring alternatives in - that's what the wealthier clubs have - until we have an owner willing to throw billions at the team or billions of people contributing a pound each a la the RS or Man U or relocate to London and charge OTT corporate/admission prices we'll continue to bang our heads on the so called 'glass ceiling'.

 

[gorgeousgeorgeEFC]

Inferior players do tend to have an inferiority complex.

The club has barely won an away game at a top club in 20 years. The run against United only ended when Ferguson appointed a clueless successor completely out of his depth. Outside that one off, what's the total record against United, RS, Arse and Chelsea over 20 years?

It's down to talent. We have been devoid of any top talent (bar a raw Rooney for 2 seasons) in that whole time. Jags can call himself a winner 5000 times a day, won't change the fact he will get turned inside out when faced with Suarez. David Weir was a model pro, didn't help him when Owen ran at him.