Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[oldblue]

You don't think winning the most prestigious domestic tournament in world football will entice players? Especially foreign players?

Come on now mate... Really?

Don't see a certain type of European player coming here until we look likely to be in Europe year in, year out. Long way off no matter whose in charge. Can definitely see promising younger players continue to arrive if they see a team that will give them an opportunity to play a certain style. And Fa cup is also something that will be seen globally so definitely more likely to mean something than a few extra league places.

 

[mkrudden]

Not convinced is as cut and dried as it looks. His head always gets turned when he goes away with Belgium.

Also he could see changes happening and want to be part of it. Be that the manager, players coming in, coaching staff etc. Whatever we do this summer it must be done early, and that includes him.

Totally agree.

 

[mkrudden]

Don't see a certain type of European player coming here until we look likely to be in Europe year in, year out. Long way off no matter whose in charge. Can definitely see promising younger players continue to arrive if they see a team that will give them an opportunity to play a certain style. And Fa cup is also something that will be seen globally so definitely more likely to mean something than a few extra league places.

Agreed.
Also mate, if we win the FA Cup we will have qualified for Europe, another enticer to new signings.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

I'm struggling mate as this doesn't seem to make sense.

Does RL want Cash or the 5th place trophy?

*Bangs head against wall*

He doesn't need the cash as much as pre-moshiri.

Getting 5th place means lukaku would be a lot more inclined to see out another season than being 15th. There's also the £20m+ prize money from the higher position that moshiri doesn't have to spend himself.

Is that any clearer? It's really not that hard...

 

[Lanolin]

You don't think winning the most prestigious domestic tournament in world football will entice players? Especially foreign players?

Come on now mate... Really?

20 years ago it would have done. Not now.

Players want to play in the Champions League, those unable to get themselves a champions league club move to the clubs who look most likely to threaten the champions league places, hoping to either break in with that club or be noticed by one of those above them. That's why we were able to sign Lukaku, Mirallas, McCarthy etc, we were the best option available to them. They couldn't really care less that you've just been to Wembley, which is why Villa, Hull and Wigan haven't seen an influx of quality since their big days over the last few years.

That's not a reflection on my view of the cup though. The season has been a complete and utter disaster so far from my point of view, and winning the cup is the only thing that will salvage it for me. It won't change my opinion of the manager, but it will give me a very happy memory and I haven't had too many of those supporting Everton.

 

[oldblue]

Agreed.
Also mate, if we win the FA Cup we will have qualified for Europe, another enticer to new signings.

Keep forgetting that. European place and FA cup. Looking at league table at moment and our goal difference, my prediction would be 9th place there too. Young players with an extra season under their belt and generally improving, a keeper starting to look the business. Only down side really is that there's a half dozen games we should have walked away with better results from and maybe sneaked up a few places.
Maybe not the improvement we yet all hoping for but I don't see this inevitable downward spiral.

 

[mkrudden]

*Bangs head against wall*

He doesn't need the cash as much as pre-moshiri.

Getting 5th place means lukaku would be a lot more inclined to see out another season than being 15th. There's also the £20m+ prize money from the higher position that moshiri doesn't have to spend himself.

Is that any clearer? It's really not that hard...

LOL. Mate, relax.
So you don't think there is a compelling case to be made regarding:

New signings
New contract.
Europa League
Current Fa cup holders

?

Because that at the moment is realism. CL is pie in the sky stuff. If he desperately wants it, we can't compete and the beginning of the season had no right to promise it him.

Yes Leicester are up there surprisingly, but all the other usual suspects are too.

In short, 5th, No FA Cup, Europa League qualification isn't going to keep him if all he wants is CL. So having 20mil and 5th is, like winning the FA Cup I concede, a moot point in relation to RL. Agreed?

 

[davek]

And you don't think we should be?

We are.

 

[njligernj]

The bet is that with 60million in our pocket, we will adequately replace Lukaku.
Sure the player we bring in may not be world class like Romelu will undoubtedly be, however without CL football it would be foolish to think we can keep anyone who wants to play on the biggest stage. We may survive a summer like we did last but there is an inevitably I'm sure you'd agree.

Is Bony for instance likely to get 15 goals with Barkley behind him and Geri/Yarmolenko flanking him? I'd say absolutely yes. Is he as good as RL? No. Am I that arsed? Nah, because I repeat, it's foolish to think that on a transfer budget RM has worked under, CL is anything more than fantasy stuff.

That budget changes dramatically this summer, but it won't be until 2017/18 that we can potentially entice CL footballers.

More teams can AFFORD a 20+ striker than HAVE a 20+ striker.

That's a VERY important thing for all of you who want to sell Rom need to remember.

If the budget does change (I will believe it when I see it) then I dispute your contention we have to wait until 17/18. Other clubs have got CL players before they qualified for the CL. Hell look at Teixeira and the rest of them that went to China. Oscar allegedly almost went to China for 75m and I'm supposed to sell Lukaku because we have no hope of attracting CL players without the CL? Doesn't add up.

Often "I want to play in the Champions League" means "I want more money."

Your logic for selling Lukaku relies on us having world class players supplying him. Why don't we just sell those players too though? Isn't everything you've said true for them too?

We tried for DECADES before Rom to buy a striker. We had more money than most teams in the world. We failed. We failed until we stepped up to the plate and paid huge money and it was touch and go to get him here even then.

That anyone wants to go back to that period I cannot comprehend.

15 goals sounds like it's close to 20+ but it's not. It's a long way away. Here is why:

More players can score 15 goals a season than 20. A lot more. When you have a 20+ guy you start off with a fairly huge advantage over your opponents. They have to find midfield goals just to get even with you.

Given your stated scenario of world class players supplying a striker I'd suggest a 10 goal striker for a normal team might get 15 with Del/Yarm.

So now all we need to find is some bang average striker who can usually muster 10 if he plays in every game. Surround him with enough talent and he gets 15 now!

Lots of teams can get the 10-15 guy.

Hell Niasse can probably get 15 if he played all year with those players. Let's just sell Rom and not replace him at all. Pure profit baby!

Oh and that 5th place, would also attract more players to the club compared to the fa cup. Especially when the 5th place makes us look , you know, good? Where a bottom half finish again makes us look crap.

I agree that it's the perception. It's the wrong perception though: over the last 20 years there is no real difference in the number of non-rich teams that have finished in the top 4 or those that have won the FA Cup. League cup is a different story but the money clubs usually try in the FA and it shows. That's the funny part of this whole "league v Cup" thing that always comes up: truth is if you're a team that wins things then you'll finish 4+ and win some Cups; if you don't then you won't finish 4+ or win any Cups. There is no OR ... it's an AND thing bar a couple of outliers.

So while it's true winning the Cup wouldn't mean as much to players as finishing fourth ... it's actually a slightly more reliable (or at worst no less reliable) indicator of future success than finishing fourth.

If RM is on the right track and these players can pull it together the first hint we might get at that is the FA Cup and it's perception more than facts which would lead people to undersell the achievement.

... and I know he won with Wigan and look what happened! Why that one instance proves everything! Problem is we are Everton and in this universe of rare events we actually have two horses: RM win with his ex and our fourth place in the 00's. Neither was a preview of future success.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Only down side really is that there's a half dozen games we should have walked away with better results from and maybe sneaked up a few places.

Half a dozen games....In the same season.

I'd have understood twice, maybe....but half a dozen? That's almost a sixth of a season....and given we've still got almost a quarter of our league season left, it doesn't bode well, does it?

 

[davek]

you cherrypicked and put your own spin on it Dave.

The tenor of it is that it's not good enough and that you can't keep saying it will be better next year.

I have to laugh at this: it was someone else's link and I read it - and lo and behold the summary of the season thus far was close to my own.

Maybe you lot should vet your own propaganda a bit better before posting it?

 

[oldblue]

20 years ago it would have done. Not now.

Players want to play in the Champions League, those unable to get themselves a champions league club move to the clubs who look most likely to threaten the champions league places, hoping to either break in with that club or be noticed by one of those above them.

Not sure there's evidence for this at all. I'd say some players fancy the idea of an established champions league side. If not that then why go to one that's on the periphery unless you think they're set up for continued champion's league involvement. Otherwise I reckon they'll be drawn to teams who may increase their profiles, play a style of football that allows them to flourish under a manager who encourages you to play.
I would love to believe it but I don't see Leicester attracting bigger names than Chelsea this close season. To be honest I don't see them attracting better than us, especially if we win the FA cup. Probably unfair but true

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

we can't compete

Oh dear me mate.

 

[oldblue]

Half a dozen games....In the same season.

I'd have understood twice, maybe....but half a dozen? That's almost a sixth of a season....and given we've still got almost a quarter of our league season left, it doesn't bode well, does it?

It might indicate we don't see out games well. Probably does. But it can also be seen as an area that's easily improved

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

It might indicate we don't see out games well. Probably does. But it can also be seen as an area that's easily improved

So - Why has it taken at least half a dozen games, with no signs of remedy?