Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

Not going to happen without results this season you'd think

I dont know. No massive financial pressure to sell; big tv deal money coming in; players not looking to move on for major tournaments-sake....Everton making progress in the league and cups would be sufficient to get them to stick around.

 

[deipnosophist]

I guess the bottom line of where I'm coming from is this : we hear so often our players seeing Everton as a causeway to 'bigger clubs'. This angers me. Why do they not make their contribution at Everton fulfilling of such destination? ie make Everton a big club (again). My brothers great friend is a very good rugby player. The All Blacks jersey to him was greater than money could buy.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Moyes left a squad threadbare beyond the first team - and that first team was ageing too.

The biggest con ever tried is the one that states that Moyes left Martinez with a great base to work from. He didn't. The only thing he handed over were a group of solid professionals with the right attitude. However, they had to be completely re-booted in order to get a performance out of in a Martinez team.

I still cant believe the audacity of Martinez coming in here and grabbing this club by the scruff of the neck and turn it from a pretty direct style to almost its polar opposite...and made it work after a few months to notch up our best ever PL season points-wise.

It was a staggering achievement. But now we have to build steadily and progress with every season in order to get that type of points total again.

The restructuring of the squad from Moyes to Martinez is almost complete.

While I agree with the above to a certain extent, Martinez has had the benefit of being able to buy without selling, an option which wasn't available for Moyes. If Moyes was still here and was still motivated, then he'd likely have been carrying out a similar rebuilding and the chances are, we'd be in a similar league position that we find ourselves under Martinez, we'd just have got there in a different way.

For me, the difference is in attitude and belief. Sometimes Martinez' relentless positivity grinds a bit, but it will rub off on some of the players. If we can play without fear, then it increases our chance of winning something. Playing without fear wasn't something that was likely to happen under Moyes.

 

[davek]

I guess the bottom line of where I'm coming from is this : we hear so often our players seeing Everton as a causeway to 'bigger clubs'. This angers me. Why do they not make their contribution at Everton fulfilling of such destination? ie make Everton a big club (again). My brothers great friend is a very good rugby player. The All Blacks jersey to him was greater than money could buy.

Because they have been encouraged in the past to think that way given the club's use of player sales to make the books balance. That, as far as we can tell, is a thing of the past now, and it must have an effect on player outlook.

 

[deipnosophist]

Because they have been encouraged in the past to think that way given the club's use of player sales to make the books balance. That, as far as we can tell, is a thing of the past now, and it must have an effect on player outlook.

I sincerely hope your rationale is correct. I genuinely believe that Everton as a football club, lends some not insignificant wherewithal to our players. My fear is that filthy lucre lends greater.

 

[davek]

While I agree with the above to a certain extent, Martinez has had the benefit of being able to buy without selling, an option which wasn't available for Moyes. If Moyes was still here and was still motivated, then he'd likely have been carrying out a similar rebuilding and the chances are, we'd be in a similar league position that we find ourselves under Martinez, we'd just have got there in a different way.

For me, the difference is in attitude and belief. Sometimes Martinez' relentless positivity grinds a bit, but it will rub off on some of the players. If we can play without fear, then it increases our chance of winning something. Playing without fear wasn't something that was likely to happen under Moyes.

Tbh, in the grand scheme of things in this new era since Moyes left and the cash coming in, I dont know that Martinez (whilst having a bigger net spend than Moyes, obviously) has been any better off than his predecessor in relative terms vis-a-vis other PL opponents. In fact, I'd say the teams outside the top 5/6 further down the league have become much more competitive than when Moyes was here due to all the cash slushing about.

Could Moyes have got us where we are now if he'd stayed? Of course. Almost inevitably he would have. He knew how to get that particular top half finish done. But it would have been a dour affair and it'd have attracted much less flair players and players like Stones (presupposing he'd have been playing under Moyes regularly) would have been sold for £20M early in the summer and no stability would have come of it. There'd also be no vision or ambition.

Martinez is an upgrade from Moyes in almost every single way, imo.

 

[paulbefc]

As Barkley said in interview today: "As a group, we know we can go down in the club’s history if we are the next team to win something. We have the potential in the squad to achieve that and it will be a waste if we don’t win something.”

The players know they can do something of note here now with the personnel in place. They're young and success hungry and it's to Martinez's credit that he's assembled that squad and instilled that attitude.

This time last season we were preparing to enter a downturn that could have killed this project stone dead if many had their way. It's a salutary lesson in not allowing kneejerking to triumph at a football club.

Correct. Hopefully we all learn from it.

It's great to see less of this

in this thread these days. Long may it continue.

 

[davek]

Correct. Hopefully we all learn from it.

It's great to see less of this

in this thread these days. Long may it continue.

Ha Ha.

That'll be trundled out no doubt this season.

Wiser heads will take the long view, though.

 

[orly]

Tbh, in the grand scheme of things in this new era since Moyes left and the cash coming in, I dont know that Martinez (whilst having a bigger net spend than Moyes, obviously) has been any better off than his predecessor in relative terms vis-a-vis other PL opponents. In fact, I'd say the teams outside the top 5/6 further down the league have become much more competitive than when Moyes was here due to all the cash slushing about.

Could Moyes have got us where we are now if he'd stayed? Of course. Almost inevitably he would have. He knew how to get that particular top half finish done. But it would have been a dour affair and it'd have attracted much less flair players and players like Stones (presupposing he'd have been playing under Moyes regularly) would have been sold for £20M early in the summer and no stability would have come of it. There'd also be no vision or ambition.

Martinez is an upgrade from Moyes in almost every single way, imo.

Think that is unfair - he got pretty decent deals out during his time (Lescott and Johnson were sold at big prices).

And the 2007-2008 Everton side played some excellent football; Pienaar at his very best that year, undoubted flair player. He had to break apart that side due to the financial mismanagement at the Club (again)

 

[deipnosophist]

I think Everton's first goal vs Villa was the best I've seen in recent memory (say 5 years). The only scoring play that competes was Mirallas v West Ham (first goal 2013). Moyes had us playing some very nice football...let's not disregard truth.

 

[orly]

I think Everton's first goal vs Villa was the best I've seen in recent memory (say 5 years). The only scoring play that competes was Mirallas v West Ham (first goal 2013). Moyes had us playing some very nice football...let's not disregard truth.

Ostosh vs Larissa as well

 

[deipnosophist]

Ostosh vs Larissa as well

yes, well you get my point...

 

[Chang Elephant]

This time last season we were preparing to enter a downturn that could have killed this project stone dead if many had their way.

Unfair on Martinez, Dave, he seems to have learned from his attempted suicide.

No vanity projects like Eto this year, Distin was put out to grass, Naismith's pitch time's being restricted, and Stones/Barkley aren't being rested/dropped for no good reason. If he can just take his head out of his arse and replace Timmy we're good to go.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

If only we'd have sacked Martinez last year when we had the chance we'd be sat in the top 4 now looking odds on for a CL place come May.

Instead we're just happy to be top half cause some hack wrote a gushing article about our wonderful football.

 

[davek]

Think that is unfair - he got pretty decent deals out during his time (Lescott and Johnson were sold at big prices).

And the 2007-2008 Everton side played some excellent football; Pienaar at his very best that year, undoubted flair player. He had to break apart that side due to the financial mismanagement at the Club (again)

Point is: he'd have sold them. This board would accept Martinez doing that too, but he wont. Quietly Martinez is proving a much stronger character than Moyes around the club. Respectful to the owners, but determined to build, not develop and sell. The new influx of cash helps in that respect, yes. But it's not the whole story.