Roberto Martinez discussion

davek · November 28, 2015

Chang Elephant said:
Unfair on Martinez, Dave, he seems to have learned from his attempted suicide.

No vanity projects like Eto this year, Distin was put out to grass, Naismith's pitch time's being restricted, and Stones/Barkley aren't being rested/dropped for no good reason. If he can just take his head out of his arse and replace Timmy we're good to go.

Martinez made mistakes last season, no question. But after proving what he could do with a fair wind behind him the previous season he didnt deserve to have his position placed in question by people with feeble minds and short memories...as said, that lot would have had us with Pulis, Alardyce or Eddie Howe in that dugout right now.

Woolly Blue · November 28, 2015

davek said:
Tbh, in the grand scheme of things in this new era since Moyes left and the cash coming in, I dont know that Martinez (whilst having a bigger net spend than Moyes, obviously) has been any better off than his predecessor in relative terms vis-a-vis other PL opponents. In fact, I'd say the teams outside the top 5/6 further down the league have become much more competitive than when Moyes was here due to all the cash slushing about.

Could Moyes have got us where we are now if he'd stayed? Of course. Almost inevitably he would have. He knew how to get that particular top half finish done. But it would have been a dour affair and it'd have attracted much less flair players and players like Stones (presupposing he'd have been playing under Moyes regularly) would have been sold for £20M early in the summer and no stability would have come of it. There'd also be no vision or ambition.

Martinez is an upgrade from Moyes in almost every single way, imo.

Right time, right place for both of them.

I doubt Moyes could have instilled the belief in the squad that Martinez has. I also doubt Martinez could have done the job that Moyes did for us in his first seven or eight seasons. Sometimes chance just happens to throw up things at the right time.

maccavennie · November 28, 2015

davek said:
Martinez made mistakes last season, no question. But after proving what he could do with a fair wind behind him the previous season he didnt deserve to have his position placed in question by people with feeble minds and short memories...as said, that lot would have had us with Pulis, Alardyce or Eddie Howe in that dugout right now.

That would be sound having all 3 in the dug out Dave, we could call them the APE team.

Saint Domingo · November 28, 2015

davek said:
Point is: he'd have sold them. This board would accept Martinez doing that too, but he wont. Quietly Martinez is proving a much stronger character than Moyes around the club. Respectful to the owners, but determined to build, not develop and sell. The new influx of cash helps in that respect, yes. But it's not the whole story.

Bit harsh. Do you not think Moyes wanted to keep Arteta? He didn't have a choice though. Did Moyes not dig in with Lescott? The board sold him anyway. Do you think Moyes wanted to sell Rooney?

The financial landscape has changed. Martinez no longer has to sell to get a transfer budget, or even worse just to service some debt. Even with this though one of his first acts was to sell Fellaini. We've kept hold of Stones for one window. If you think the only reason we sold players in the past was because Moyes was too weak with the board then you are in for a shock. If we don't win trophies and deliver European football in the near future, Stones Lukaku and Deulofeu will not be here regardless of how much Martinez won't want to sell them.

mythbuster · November 28, 2015

Saint Domingo said:
Bit harsh. Do you not think Moyes wanted to keep Arteta? He didn't have a choice though. Did Moyes not dig in with Lescott? The board sold him anyway. Do you think Moyes wanted to sell Rooney?

The financial landscape has changed. Martinez no longer has to sell to get a transfer budget, or even worse just to service some debt. Even with this though one of his first acts was to sell Fellaini. We've kept hold of Stones for one window. If you think the only reason we sold players in the past was because Motes was too weak with the board then you are in for a shock. If we don't win trophies and deliver European football in the near future, Stones Lukaku and Feulofeu will not be here regardless of how much Maryinez won't want to sell them.

Don't know why people are worried about us losing Stones, Lukaku and Barkley. It would obviously be great to keep them all, but the bidding for each of them will have to start at £40 million. It's hardly the doomsday scenario that people are making out.

Roberto has played a big part in developing all 3 of them.

riddick · November 28, 2015

davek said:
There was never going to be linear progression when Martinez came. The squad he inherited didn't allow for that. Instead we had a great season followed by a poor season. Now that the squad situation is reinvigorated we can look for that type of steady progress.

-----------------------Howard----------------------
Coleman------Distin/Stones------Jags-----Baines
-------------Barry------------McCarthy------------
Barkley<--------->Osman----------------Mirallas
---------------------Lukaku------------------------

notable subs(10 games+): Deulofeu, Naismith, Pienaar, McGeady, Oviedo

That was two seasons ago. What, exactly, is massively different than this season? Barkley in place of Osman, Deulofeu on the right? How is it that a team from 2 seasons ago that is almost identical to this one is OK to do worse? The players should be more mature and perform better with similar players, no?

davek · November 28, 2015

riddick said:
-----------------------Howard----------------------
Coleman------Distin/Stones------Jags-----Baines
-------------Barry------------McCarthy------------
Barkley<--------->Osman----------------Mirallas
---------------------Lukaku------------------------

notable subs(10 games+): Deulofeu, Naismith, Pienaar, McGeady, Oviedo

That was two seasons ago. What, exactly, is massively different than this season? Barkley in place of Osman, Deulofeu on the right? How is it that a team from 2 seasons ago that is almost identical to this one is OK to do worse? The players should be more mature and perform better with similar players, no?

The situation is different, though.

To get 72 points out of basically that team with no real quality cover beyond a couple in the subs you name was outrageous. But it wasn't sustainable: Distin's legs went; Osman was a bit part player even two seasons ago; Barkley and Stones needed bringing through still.

Now we are building a fine squad of players who are young/new and learning how to play together. Baines has been out and remains out; Mirallas' head has gone and isn't in the form he was two season's back; Jagielka is now injured; Howard is only just about helping us between the sticks. That's why we should be very encouraged about the coming seasons but be realistic about what we achieve this season.

Zatara · November 28, 2015

Arteta wanted to go.

Lescott was replaced with 3 players who Moyes chose (Heitinga/Distin/Bilyaletdinov) for greater outlay.

Not sure what that has to do with our board.

Saint Domingo said:
Bit harsh. Do you not think Moyes wanted to keep Arteta? He didn't have a choice though. Did Moyes not dig in with Lescott? The board sold him anyway. Do you think Moyes wanted to sell Rooney?

The financial landscape has changed. Martinez no longer has to sell to get a transfer budget, or even worse just to service some debt. Even with this though one of his first acts was to sell Fellaini. We've kept hold of Stones for one window. If you think the only reason we sold players in the past was because Moyes was too weak with the board then you are in for a shock. If we don't win trophies and deliver European football in the near future, Stones Lukaku and Deulofeu will not be here regardless of how much Martinez won't want to sell them.

Zatara · November 28, 2015

You're dead on here.

I think also the fact Martinez, Barkley and Deulofeu have all recently come out and said that they expect to win something with this young group speaks volumes.

Sure, we will have more bids come in for players but we can reject them. As we have seen with Stones.

I think these players have bought into Martinez' positivity. The only thing now to keep this going would be to add to the group....

We are seeing players like Galloway coming in via the u21's and i think that if we can add in perhaps 2 players a summer into the core group this would boost morale and really keep momentum going -- why leave when we have Deulofeu quality coming in each summer??

Who else has as many players of say 18-25 of such quality coming through?

davek said:
It's simple enough: in that first season he motivated a team already in situ and added to them the type of goalscorer Moyes would never have gone for. The result was a record points haul. It was an unbelievable effort and one that shouldn't have been seen as a benchmark for the following season. We fell away badly last season because that Moyes squad (already old and needing rebuilding when Martinez got here) couldn't handle the extra workload of a season in Europe on top of the domestic programme. This season he's got to grips with the squad rebuilding and he's been assimilating some good purchases into it. Anything this season that sees us comfortably top half and with a very respectable cup run is a very good effort. The foundations are being built for the future and Martinez is very definitely now constructing a team in his own image.

There was never going to be linear progression when Martinez came. The squad he inherited didn't allow for that. Instead we had a great season followed by a poor season. Now that the squad situation is reinvigorated we can look for that type of steady progress.

davek · November 28, 2015

Zatara said:
You're dead on here.

I think also the fact Martinez, Barkley and Deulofeu have all recently come out and said that they expect to win something with this young group speaks volumes.

Sure, we will have more bids come in for players but we can reject them. As we have seen with Stones.

I think these players have bought into Martinez' positivity. The only thing now to keep this going would be to add to the group....

We are seeing players like Galloway coming in via the u21's and i think that if we can add in perhaps 2 players a summer into the core group this would boost morale and really keep momentum going -- why leave when we have Deulofeu quality coming in each summer??

Who else has as many players of say 18-25 of such quality coming through?

Adding a top class playmaker would give us a lot of options and pretty much make us contenders for a CL place this season. Add a second striker worthy of the name to vie with Lukaku up front.

We're not that far off, tbh.

Zatara · November 28, 2015

There's one interesting point in that complimentary article regarding a " combative box to box midfielder"

Our central midfield currently consists of:

McCarthy
Besic
Barry
Osman
Gibson
Cleverley
Barkley

Due to age and injury proneness i think Barry/Osman and Gibson will be off in the next few windows leaving us with;

McCarthy
Besic
Barkley
Cleverley

This is for 3 positions so 6 players needed.

I wonder, the defence seems sorted + its agreed we need a new keeper and competition for Kone and Lukaku but i imagine Martinez will be looking at the central midfield area as well.

My guess was that McCarthy/Besic would be competing for the DM role and then Barkley moved back to compete with Cleverley for the CM position.

However, its interesting that the writer felt we needed such a box-to-box player as i felt Martinez would be more inclined to bring in a new ACM.

This could also be key to our play, sticking with the McCarthy/Barry/Barkley .type of setup or moving Barkley further back.

This could certainly redefine our play. I think it will be interesting to see what he does.

davek · November 28, 2015

Zatara said:
There's one interesting point in that complimentary article regarding a " combative box to box midfielder"

Our central midfield currently consists of:

McCarthy
Besic
Barry
Osman
Gibson
Cleverley
Barkley

Due to age and injury proneness i think Barry/Osman and Gibson will be off in the next few windows leaving us with;

McCarthy
Besic
Barkley
Cleverley

This is for 3 positions so 6 players needed.

I wonder, the defence seems sorted + its agreed we need a new keeper and competition for Kone and Lukaku but i imagine Martinez will be looking at the central midfield area as well.

My guess was that McCarthy/Besic would be competing for the DM role and then Barkley moved back to compete with Cleverley for the CM position.

However, its interesting that the writer felt we needed such a box-to-box player as i felt Martinez would be more inclined to bring in a new ACM.

This could also be key to our play, sticking with the McCarthy/Barry/Barkley .type of setup or moving Barkley further back.

This could certainly redefine our play. I think it will be interesting to see what he does.

I'd play Barkley further back and bring a playmaker in. What Deulofeu has been doing in the past few weeks - breaking through the middle of the park and feeding balls into feet ahead of him - is really what we should be getting out of Barkley in the future. He's also got the athleticism and pace to carry the ball to the opposition box. He could be one of the best in the world in that position if his development carries on.