Roberto Martinez discussion

[bicycleheader]

Think even if we qualified for a champions league spot, that doesn't guarantee we could keep hold of Stones and Lukaku if any of the top teams around Europe came in for either of them.

True. Got to be realistic about our place on the footy ladder even if we move up. Even the richest teams in our league would lose their best if the big two from Spain came calling.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

But you've posted the squad with his signings in it. He was referring to before his time I am sure as everybody said Moyes had hit a ceiling and couldnt take us further. The immense potential right now is not coming from anybody who was playing before he came here. It's coming from his signings and two youth players that he trusted in from the off.

2 and a half seasons. Patience still needed, and not too much attention should be paid to what managers say to the press in general.

The point is, the side listed there from 2013/14 under him finished with our highest ever PL points total.

There's only Distin that isn't here now and so, IMO he's over egging it to suggest ;

“The reality is that we have taken a very different approach to what we are as a team than we took at this club three years ago. Three years ago it was a very experienced team who knew how to win games but had some sort of ceiling. Now we have gone very young with immense potential to go beyond that ceiling, and there has been investment in that potential so we will get the rewards from it.

That immense talent was there, performing under him when we finished 5th, so they're capable now.

 

[GwladysBlue]

Everton take on Manchester City in the first leg of the League Cup semi-final on Wednesday.

"I don’t think winning a cup will keep the young players, I think qualifying for the Champions League could help to keep young players," Martinez said.



So he's basically saying be prepared to lose a couple of younger players. In other words Lukaku and Stones.

If it wasn't for him, this season we probably would have qualified for it.

 

[bicycleheader]

The point is, the side listed there from 2013/14 under him finished with our highest ever PL points total.

There's only Distin that isn't here now and so, IMO he's over egging it to suggest ;



That immense talent was there, performing under him when we finished 5th, so they're capable now.

They are capable yes, and they showed it in that first season. However they are young...we are not filling the team with limited players who have experience like Moyes did at times, so therefore...inconsistency and patchy form. They are young. They will make mistakes, and even the best players will have a bad season.

It comes back to the same thing. Patience. Unfortunately its severely lacking in the modern football fan.

 

[MikeH72]

In fairness to Martinez few can argue with the logic back then. He'd had one of his best seasons. Martinez knew he would be bringing in younger players, particularly in the defence and probably banked on Howard being a bit like how Freidel was (or Martyn). A really steady pair of hands and a confidence booster for a young team and defence.

I imagine that was the main thinking in Martinez's mind. In spite of what people think he does consider these things a lot. The point of criticism for me was not in that thinking, all of that is very sensible, but more in his refusal to adapt that thinking to the evidence in front of him.

The other week he said he liked Howard as an experienced goalkeeper. Again perfectly sound logic. The only issue is he doesn't perform as a experienced goalkeeper. He is further unsettling the defence. It may well sound harsh but I put our season not being on track squarely at his doorstep. I think he unnerves the defence and has directly cost us enough points to stop us being in the top 8. The indirect impact is greater.

I have read his book recently too. He doesn't come across as the most likeable guy and I won't shed many tears to see him punted.

He hadn't though, the defence and the rest of the team were so good that we were able to paper over how crap he was. You can't go from being absolutely gash in 12/13, to amazing in 13/14, to straight back to being gash again from 2014 onwards. Add that to the fact that not many goalkeepers are top class until the age of 39, the 4 year contract was a big error of judgement on Martinez's part for me

 

[GraemeS1980]

Martinez has managed 248 Premier League games with a 31% match win rate. This has just been on Sky Sports, thats an average of 32 points per 38 games. Ok that doesn't include matches drawn but is that acceptable for us?

 

[GrandOldTeam]

They are capable yes, and they showed it in that first season. However they are young...we are not filling the team with limited players who have experience like Moyes did at times, so therefore...inconsistency and patchy form. They are young. They will make mistakes, and even the best players will have a bad season.

It comes back to the same thing. Patience. Unfortunately its severely lacking in the modern football fan.

More importantly, patience is even less to the modern footballer and particularly those with 'immense potential'

Bottom half league finishes isn't going to keep them here, 5th place - achieved with the same squad minus Distin we have today, could have done - evident by Lukaku signing permanently.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Martinez has managed 248 Premier League games with a 31% match win rate. This has just been on Sky Sports, thats an average of 32 points per 38 games. Ok that doesn't include matches drawn but is that acceptable for us?

Really?

Coincidentally, If we look at our last 58 league games - 38 last season and 20 this season, our record is W18, D20, L20. A win rate of the exact same - 31%

 

[toffeeblue9]

Martinez has managed 248 Premier League games with a 31% match win rate. This has just been on Sky Sports, thats an average of 32 points per 38 games. Ok that doesn't include matches drawn but is that acceptable for us?

I'm only arsed about what he has done with Everton in all honesty

Klopp got Mainz relegated from the Bundesliga but became one of Dortmund's best ever managers. May as well ignore what he did with a team with a fraction of the resources he has now

 

[Eggs]

Think even if we qualified for a champions league spot, that doesn't guarantee we could keep hold of Stones and Lukaku if any of the top teams around Europe came in for either of them.

.....Chelsea were Champions and came in for Stones but didn't get him. I think the landscape has changed slightly, normally when a player wants a move it happens but that is not now the case. I think a lot depends on what might have been said to individuals, but regardless I suggest our top players will only go for top dollar.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I'm only arsed about what he has done with Everton in all honesty

Klopp got Mainz relegated from the Bundesliga but became one of Dortmund's best ever managers. May as well ignore what he did with a team with a fraction of the resources he has now

Me too mate.

As above;

Coincidentally, If we look at our last 58 league games - 38 last season and 20 this season, our record is W18, D20, L20. A win rate of the exact same - 31%

If we look at all his league games at Everton, (W21, D9, L8 in his first season bumps the average right up), then W42 D29 D28 - 42% win rate. The same as David Moyes (P518 W218 D139 L161)

 

[davek]

In fairness to Martinez few can argue with the logic back then. He'd had one of his best seasons. Martinez knew he would be bringing in younger players, particularly in the defence and probably banked on Howard being a bit like how Freidel was (or Martyn). A really steady pair of hands and a confidence booster for a young team and defence.

I imagine that was the main thinking in Martinez's mind. In spite of what people think he does consider these things a lot. The point of criticism for me was not in that thinking, all of that is very sensible, but more in his refusal to adapt that thinking to the evidence in front of him.

The other week he said he liked Howard as an experienced goalkeeper. Again perfectly sound logic. The only issue is he doesn't perform as a experienced goalkeeper. He is further unsettling the defence. It may well sound harsh but I put our season not being on track squarely at his doorstep. I think he unnerves the defence and has directly cost us enough points to stop us being in the top 8. The indirect impact is greater.

I have read his book recently too. He doesn't come across as the most likeable guy and I won't shed many tears to see him punted.

100% agreed on him not facing facts on the subject as they unfolded. More especially because he continued to stay loyal to Howard when we have a GK in better form - who he brought into the club!

Who knows, maybe Martinez told Howard back when he signed an extension that he'd be the starter no matter what....an arrangement he seems to like, as he did this with Al Habsi at Wigan. If so I cant agree with that. Fair enough, a GK is a position that needs handling with greater sensitivity than other positions, but all players should be subject to competition for their place and Howard has had to face nothing other than a period out due to pulling his hamstring.

It's not on and has to change.

 

[Toffeelover]

I think with Jags back the centre may well hold together better. Looking at the table if we can start to put together a string of wins I see no reason why we cannot be looking at 5th or higher. Roberto needs to pay attention to his starting line ups. Start playing Besic in there, drop Kone and go for Lennon and Del wide on each wing with Barkers in the middle supporting Rom. Won't happen yet but get a new keeper that would have to be wroth a few points.

Pity this Swiss lad is being loaned back to Grasshoppers 'cos I think he would be good enough to get straight in with Rom.

 

[davek]

Me too mate.

As above;

Coincidentally, If we look at our last 58 league games - 38 last season and 20 this season, our record is W18, D20, L20. A win rate of the exact same - 31%

If we look at all his league games at Everton, (W21, D9, L8 in his first season bumps the average right up), then W42 D29 D28 - 42% win rate. The same as David Moyes (P518 W218 D139 L161)

By why - if only his career with Everton interests you - would you be selective initially in leaving out his first season here?

 

[GrandOldTeam]

By why - if only his career with Everton interests you - would you be selective initially in leaving out his first season here?

You've took the wrong angle. You probably should have went with including cup games (as Moyes' record includes) - I'd suspect his overall record could fall even below Moyes then.

Anyway, the answer is pretty obvious.

I find it's useful to segment vs previous season for time relevancy.

This time next season I'll be looking at current+last.

I'll slot in the overall, as I did here - but it's useful to break it out.

You're only as good as your last game, stretching that ideology - your last season.

If we finish 11th again this season, and, next, and next, and next - will you still be harping on about his first season?