Roberto Martinez discussion

[Brownie]

I'd say only McCarthy out of young crew know how to do the little things that help you hold out under pressure. Baines and Osman are both good at it too, and we've been missing both of them. It's not a huge difference, but those three being injured for the majority of the season hasn't helped.

 

[paulbefc]

That's all well and good Paul, but the average starting age this season is older than the season we finished 5th. I think I might have said that now about 20 times.

There's tons of experience in the squad. Our average age is comparative to the rest of the league, the same as West Ham for instance.

It's just a crap excuse as far as I'm concerned. The stats back that up.

Is this just a chosen XI for each season, or have all XIs been taken into account and then averaged?

It'd be really easy to say Stones was a starter for that whole season when he wasn't. A 30-odd year old Distin played a lot of games. Same with Deulofeu. It was Barkley's first season and he was taken out at times too. You'd leave Galloway out of this season's etc etc

I don't think the inexperience factor is really the excuse. I think we've been forced to rely on inexperienced players because of key long term injuries. We could have brought in, for example, a more experienced 3rd choice centre back, but we have a manager who seems to trust young players and a long-term approach, perhaps. This has benefits and drawbacks, obviously.

 

[LinekersLegs]

It was his choice to let Distin and Alcaraz go, and spend a record fee on Mori and bring no other defender in with experience.

injuries are part of the game, we've been no less fortunate than most. Look at Arsenal's injuries this season, and Liverpool...

Having 5 experienced defenders all out at one time is pretty unlucky tbf - Jags/Baines/Oviedo/Hibbert/Coleman, not unheard of but fairly hard to plan for even in big teams.

Agree we did push it with our defender numbers though, especially with all the transfer furour over Stones - thank goodness he didn't throw his toys out of the pram.

 

[LinekersLegs]

That's all well and good Paul, but the average starting age this season is older than the season we finished 5th. I think I might have said that now about 20 times.

There's tons of experience in the squad. Our average age is comparative to the rest of the league, the same as West Ham for instance.

It's just a crap excuse as far as I'm concerned. The stats back that up.

Is that average age of the squad or the average age of the teams we've fielded in the matches?

 

[maccavennie]

Well said.

No excuses - just go and perform and climb the table. Our squad is capable.

Agreed. I've said it time and time again, he makes me shudder with some of the guff he spouts but it's bearable if we are getting positive results. When we are winning 1 in 6-7 and losing and drawing and he's saying we have world class players and we are amazing it winds me up. We may well have world class players but that doesn't really say too much about his credentials on how to get the best out of them.

Yesterday was much better, more balanced and mixed up more. I'm going to give him credit for the changes since Spurs ( most notably Besic ) though deep down I still feel he wouldn't have got a sniff of an opportunity if James McCarthy was fit. I still think he's a stubborn manager who only sees one way to play with the same players but maybe just maybe he's learned a lesson that It's good to mix It up once in a while

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Is that average age of the squad or the average age of the teams we've fielded in the matches?

Average starting 11

 

[Woolly Blue]

There isn't a single key player in this seasons squad, missing from the squad that finished 5th.

We're 11th. We're underperforming and it's not because we're inexperienced - because the same squads average age is higher than it was.



No, it wasn't.

Honestly... Feel like a stuck record here.

At the actual press conference, on the subject of this being a disappointing season, Martinez said three years ago the side was experienced and knew how to win, but now, it's full of young immense potential.



That's definitely over egging it and a piss poor excuse for underperforming this season.

To demonstrate the point, I listed the squad from Martinez first season - which obviously knew how to bloody win because we won more PL games than ever before.

We've still got that same squad. No key player is missing.

To say 3 years ago we had a very experienced team who knew how to win, then tell us, who are we missing from that very experienced team who knew how to win? Distin?!



I've not, your splitting hairs and the point could be made with the squad from a few months before. What squad should I use? I used the squad from his first full season...

Tell us, who are we missing from that very experienced team 3 years ago that we don't have now...



Again, same bloody squad...

I'm not splitting hairs at all, three years is three years, end of.

I've already shown you that the majority of our first pick now, either weren't here three years ago, or didn't feature.

To keep it simple I'll say the following.

Before the match last night I was quietly confident we could get a result. Three years ( yes, there's that three years again ) I wouldn't have been confident. Three years ago I'd have been hoping for a backs to the wall performance and hoped to nick a goal, but now I know we're capable of outplaying the likes of City and not having to rely on parking the bus. You can only get so far with pragmatism, which is why he was talking about a ceiling.

This will sound condescending and, to be fair it is. You're young and both this place and your business have probably had pretty much straight line growth so the chances are you havn't cottoned on to the fact that sometimes you have to unlearn previous habits to progress, and while you're going through that unlearning, things often get worse.

Compare it to learning a foreign language where you learn the pronunciation of something wrong and have got it wrong for months. It's a major pain in the arse to throw away what you've done and get it right.

In time you'll come to understand, and you might even think back in years to come and realise that that Woolly lad wasn't actually being an argumentative old git, he was actually right. But I digress ...

In 2013/14 we had a pretty settled back four and keeper, all of whom, barring Stones, had played together regularly. This season's the back four's been unsettled. Also, he's plainly neglected the defensive side of things on the training ground while he's been in charge, something which he needs to remedy and show that we can be consistently solid. The jury's out on whether he can deliver on that, I'm not convinced he will deliver consistently.

I presume, to a certain extent, you're playing devil's advocate here to counter the way that @davek monopolises any discussion about Martinez in a way that just subtly winds people. I would suggest that the correct way to deal with that situation is to thread ban dave from any Martinez threads which would allow more constructive discussions to take place.

The defence rests ( on it's heels and watches wingers flash by ).

 

[Woolly Blue]

@GrandOldTeam vs @Woolly Blue

I am aroused.

How aroused ?
No, don't answer that.

 

[meagher94]

Bit part player? He played 28 games.

Only 15 league starts though and it is of course league performance we're talking about.

 

[davek]

Going to the age issue again, I think the kernel of the opposition to the idea that the demographics have't changed that much is that realistically we can field a very young first team and it would be hard pressed not to be described as such. That's the difference from years gone by.


Robles (25)
Browning (21) Stones (21) Funes Mori (24) Galloway (19)
McCarthy (25) Besic (23)
Deulofeu (21) Barkley (22) Cleverley (26)
Lukaku (22)

Average age: 22.

That's realistic and staggering age wise for a bona fide first team.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Is that average age of the squad or the average age of the teams we've fielded in the matches?

Back in December someone on the radio said our average starting 11 is comparable. I had a quick check and the starting 11s of West Ham and Palace on the same match day as us;

I'm not splitting hairs at all, three years is three years, end of.

I've already shown you that the majority of our first pick now, either weren't here three years ago, or didn't feature.

To keep it simple I'll say the following.

Before the match last night I was quietly confident we could get a result. Three years ( yes, there's that three years again ) I wouldn't have been confident. Three years ago I'd have been hoping for a backs to the wall performance and hoped to nick a goal, but now I know we're capable of outplaying the likes of City and not having to rely on parking the bus. You can only get so far with pragmatism, which is why he was talking about a ceiling.

This will sound condescending and, to be fair it is. You're young and both this place and your business have probably had pretty much straight line growth so the chances are you havn't cottoned on to the fact that sometimes you have to unlearn previous habits to progress, and while you're going through that unlearning, things often get worse.

Compare it to learning a foreign language where you learn the pronunciation of something wrong and have got it wrong for months. It's a major pain in the arse to throw away what you've done and get it right.

In time you'll come to understand, and you might even think back in years to come and realise that that Woolly lad wasn't actually being an argumentative old git, he was actually right. But I digress ...

In 2013/14 we had a pretty settled back four and keeper, all of whom, barring Stones, had played together regularly. This season's the back four's been unsettled. Also, he's plainly neglected the defensive side of things on the training ground while he's been in charge, something which he needs to remedy and show that we can be consistently solid. The jury's out on whether he can deliver on that, I'm not convinced he will deliver consistently.

I presume, to a certain extent, you're playing devil's advocate here to counter the way that @davek monopolises any discussion about Martinez in a way that just subtly winds people. I would suggest that the correct way to deal with that situation is to thread ban dave from any Martinez threads which would allow more constructive discussions to take place.

The defence rests ( on it's heels and watches wingers flash by ).

A load of nonsense - except the devils advocate bit.

And you never answered the question.

Martinez: "3 years ago we had a team that was full of experience and knew how to win"

Use your experience and wisdom and tell me what players we're missing from the squad 3 years ago (go on, use your own data...).

Agreed. I've said it time and time again, he makes me shudder with some of the guff he spouts but it's bearable if we are getting positive results. When we are winning 1 in 6-7 and losing and drawing and he's saying we have world class players and we are amazing it winds me up. We may well have world class players but that doesn't really say too much about his credentials on how to get the best out of them.

Yesterday was much better, more balanced and mixed up more. I'm going to give him credit for the changes since Spurs ( most notably Besic ) though deep down I still feel he wouldn't have got a sniff of an opportunity if James McCarthy was fit. I still think he's a stubborn manager who only sees one way to play with the same players but maybe just maybe he's learned a lesson that It's good to mix It up once in a while

Spot on.

 

[Toast]

You don't win anything with kids.

 

[davek]

I'm not splitting hairs at all, three years is three years, end of.

I've already shown you that the majority of our first pick now, either weren't here three years ago, or didn't feature.

To keep it simple I'll say the following.

Before the match last night I was quietly confident we could get a result. Three years ( yes, there's that three years again ) I wouldn't have been confident. Three years ago I'd have been hoping for a backs to the wall performance and hoped to nick a goal, but now I know we're capable of outplaying the likes of City and not having to rely on parking the bus. You can only get so far with pragmatism, which is why he was talking about a ceiling.

This will sound condescending and, to be fair it is. You're young and both this place and your business have probably had pretty much straight line growth so the chances are you havn't cottoned on to the fact that sometimes you have to unlearn previous habits to progress, and while you're going through that unlearning, things often get worse.

Compare it to learning a foreign language where you learn the pronunciation of something wrong and have got it wrong for months. It's a major pain in the arse to throw away what you've done and get it right.

In time you'll come to understand, and you might even think back in years to come and realise that that Woolly lad wasn't actually being an argumentative old git, he was actually right. But I digress ...

In 2013/14 we had a pretty settled back four and keeper, all of whom, barring Stones, had played together regularly. This season's the back four's been unsettled. Also, he's plainly neglected the defensive side of things on the training ground while he's been in charge, something which he needs to remedy and show that we can be consistently solid. The jury's out on whether he can deliver on that, I'm not convinced he will deliver consistently.

I presume, to a certain extent, you're playing devil's advocate here to counter the way that @davek monopolises any discussion about Martinez in a way that just subtly winds people. I would suggest that the correct way to deal with that situation is to thread ban dave from any Martinez threads which would allow more constructive discussions to take place.

The defence rests ( on it's heels and watches wingers flash by ).

Eh! Eh! Eh!...dont pull me into it because the gaffer's going to kick your arse to the kerb!!

 

[Woolly Blue]

A load of nonsense.

And you never answered the question.

Martinez: "3 years ago we had a team that was full of experience and knew how to win"

Use your experience and wisdom and tell me what players we're missing from the squad 3 years ago (go on, use your own data...).



.

Quite simply, I don't need to use my own data. Yours was wrong and all you're doing is trying to wriggle your way out of that.

Just admit that the data you were using wasn't from three years ago, that it included a substantial number of players who weren't there three years ago and we can talk about the failings of this squad compared to 2013/14. Problem is, you're just too stubborn to admit you were wrong, which is a failing of youth.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Average starting 11

But West Ham only have two players under 25 that has seen regular matches - Lanzinni (22) and Jenkinson (23) whereas we're regularly started Ross, Rom, Gerrard, John and Brendan - having Howard and Barry with a combined age of 70 really distorts the numbers!