Roberto Martinez discussion

[Joey66]

RM drop Howard till Robles plays poor , and get his subs correct , and we will not look back

 

[Aar_the_Toffees]

You don't win anything with kids.

We've been the first for a fair few other things too.

 

[Chang Elephant]

Can we please discuss these issues calmly without aggression for once

 

[meagher94]

But West Ham only have two players under 25 that has seen regular matches - Lanzinni (22) and Jenkinson (23) whereas we're regularly started Ross, Rom, Gerrard, John and Brendan - having Howard and Barry with a combined age of 70 really distorts the numbers!

We're discussing if young players' inexperience has cost us this season - funnily enough it's the bloody oldest one there in Howard who has cost us the most.

 

[micknick]

Attackers have no difficulty getting away from the gormless tool in the 18 yard box too.

If you think Jags is poor you really really don't know football, even less than I already thought.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Quite simply, I don't need to use my own data. Yours was wrong and all you're doing is trying to wriggle your way out of that.

Just admit that the data you were using wasn't from three years ago, that it included a substantial number of players who weren't there three years ago and we can talk about the failings of this squad compared to 2013/14. Problem is, you're just too stubborn to admit you were wrong, which is a failing of youth.

Haha, nice try.

You've swerved the question - again. I expect a better standard of posting from a moderator, improve - and quick.

But West Ham only have two players under 25 that has seen regular matches - Lanzinni (22) and Jenkinson (23) whereas we're regularly started Ross, Rom, Gerrard, John and Brendan - having Howard and Barry with a combined age of 70 really distorts the numbers!

Of course. You can skew it any way you see fit, West Ham and Crystal Palace will have been able to replace a few and bring there's down - there's a point in there though.

At the end of the day, It's very simple to me.

We're a better team and squad than 3 years ago.

We're a better team and squad than the team that finished 5th in Martinez' debut season in 2013/14.

I say better, because the team has developed - the potential that existed in 2013/14, is still with us, only, developed.

Credit to Martinez for that. He's kept the immense potential and developed it.

To write us off now and say the teams that performed in Everton's recent past knew how to win, but we don't is silly when you consider we won a record number of games in Martinez' debut season - where the likes of Lukaku and Barkley were automatic starters...

We're now 11th. We're capable of better. We'll finish in the top half.

If you're good enough, you're old enough.

They're good enough for a top 8 finish.

We're 11th.

 

[davek]

If you think Jags is poor you really really don't know football, even less than I already thought.

He's a poor captain. If there's a case to be heard that demonstrates he isn't I'd like to hear it....

 

[Kiwi]

That's all well and good Paul, but the average starting age this season is older than the season we finished 5th. I think I might have said that now about 20 times.

There's tons of experience in the squad. Our average age is comparative to the rest of the league, the same as West Ham for instance.

It's just a crap excuse as far as I'm concerned. The stats back that up.

Old players get older and young players get older.
I'm not too bothered about what the stats say, the stats can be interpreted and spun however you want to spin them.
From a subjective point of view, we have players on two sides of a spectrum, and very few in the middle.
We have the veterans, in Tim Howard, Barry, Jags and Baines who comprise our experienced players who have been around the block. In that group we also have Hibbert, Pienaar and Osman who haven't played much and don't have too much in the way of a future at the club with retirements or contracts ending by the close of the season in my opinion.
We also have a large swathe of under 24s who comprise some key players for us in McCarthy, Ross, Lukaku, Deulofeu , Stones with the likes of Besic Galloway, Fumes Mori on the fringes. Now these players are all key players to the team and have some level of inexperience as they are still learning the game and becoming complete players.
No matter the experience of the veterans, when you rely on youthful players to be key players, with there's always an element of inexperience to the team.
If I was to criticise the manager it would be that there isn't enough players in their prime in the squad and that he gives Howard far too much faith, the man should be out on his ear.

Now you point to the season where we came fifth as a guideline that these players were ready, simply put if they were ready, we would have finished fourth instead of bottling it at the final hurdle.
There's no getting round the fact that that the results haven't been good enough, but when you compare how we play compared to the first season, we have seen far less worldies and goals from direct free kicks, we no longer rely on them as we create plenty of chances from open play and are capable of opening every team from the best to the worst up. We haven't got the defending quite right yet, but the last two games as well as some of what we have seen over his tenure is that he can set up a team solidly defensively but hasn't had the consistency in doing it.

Gain that defensive solidity more consistently, maintain our attacking threat and the results will come and we'll move up the league table, we really aren't too far from the European places as we stand.

 

[Chang Elephant]

Osman played 30+ games in his first season.

"played"

 

[LinekersLegs]

Haha, nice try.

You've swerved the question - again. I expect a better standard of posting from a moderator, improve - and quick.



Of course. You can skew it any way you see fit, West Ham and Crystal Palace will have been able to replace a few and bring there's down - there's a point in there though.

At the end of the day, It's very simple to me.

We're a better team and squad than 3 years ago.

We're a better team and squad than the team that finished 5th in Martinez' debut season in 2013/14.

I say better, because the team has developed - the potential that existed in 2013/14, is still with us, only, developed.

Credit to Martinez for that. He's kept the immense potential and developed it.

To write us off now and say the teams that performed in Everton's recent past knew how to win, but we don't is silly when you consider we won a record number of games in Martinez' debut season - where the likes of Lukaku and Barkley were automatic starters...

We're now 11th. We're capable of better. We'll finish in the top half.

If you're good enough, you're old enough.

They're good enough for a top 8 finish.

We're 11th.

Agree we're capable of better, regardless of the average age of the squad and hopefully we'll show it in the second half of the season when, under both Martinez and Moyes, we have typically outperformed.

We're also in a cup semi final which, at least in my mind, is a significant improvement from the 2013/14 season.

 

[ianefc]

Old players get older and young players get older.
I'm not too bothered about what the stats say, the stats can be interpreted and spun however you want to spin them.
From a subjective point of view, we have players on two sides of a spectrum, and very few in the middle.
We have the veterans, in Tim Howard, Barry, Jags and Baines who comprise our experienced players who have been around the block. In that group we also have Hibbert, Pienaar and Osman who haven't played much and don't have too much in the way of a future at the club with retirements or contracts ending by the close of the season in my opinion.
We also have a large swathe of under 24s who comprise some key players for us in McCarthy, Ross, Lukaku, Deulofeu , Stones with the likes of Besic Galloway, Fumes Mori on the fringes. Now these players are all key players to the team and have some level of inexperience as they are still learning the game and becoming complete players.
No matter the experience of the veterans, when you rely on youthful players to be key players, with there's always an element of inexperience to the team.
If I was to criticise the manager it would be that there isn't enough players in their prime in the squad and that he gives Howard far too much faith, the man should be out on his ear.

Now you point to the season where we came fifth as a guideline that these players were ready, simply put if they were ready, we would have finished fourth instead of bottling it at the final hurdle.
There's no getting round the fact that that the results haven't been good enough, but when you compare how we play compared to the first season, we have seen far less worldies and goals from direct free kicks, we no longer rely on them as we create plenty of chances from open play and are capable of opening every team from the best to the worst up. We haven't got the defending quite right yet, but the last two games as well as some of what we have seen over his tenure is that he can set up a team solidly defensively but hasn't had the consistency in doing it.

Gain that defensive solidity more consistently, maintain our attacking threat and the results will come and we'll move up the league table, we really aren't too far from the European places as we stand.

Could you say that again mate?

 

[Woolly Blue]

Haha, nice try.

You've swerved the question - again. I expect a better standard of posting from a moderator, improve - and quick.

Just admit that you were wrong and we can move on.
Till then, I'm not budging an inch.

I'm not a proper moderator anyway !

 

[evertony]

Agreed. I've said it time and time again, he makes me shudder with some of the guff he spouts but it's bearable if we are getting positive results. When we are winning 1 in 6-7 and losing and drawing and he's saying we have world class players and we are amazing it winds me up. We may well have world class players but that doesn't really say too much about his credentials on how to get the best out of them.

Yesterday was much better, more balanced and mixed up more. I'm going to give him credit for the changes since Spurs ( most notably Besic ) though deep down I still feel he wouldn't have got a sniff of an opportunity if James McCarthy was fit. I still think he's a stubborn manager who only sees one way to play with the same players but maybe just maybe he's learned a lesson that It's good to mix It up once in a while

I think you'll find he started against Chelsea only to get injured early doors....Martinez rates Besic and his place isn't really dependent on McCarthy being available or otherwise.

 

[micknick]

He's a poor captain. If there's a case to be heard that demonstrates he isn't I'd like to hear it....

You've just said that forwards lose him easily in the 18 yard box implying he's a poor defender, which I disagree with totally.

 

[Pacman]

The problem I have with Martinez above all Is his stubbornness. Anyone with 2 eyes can see that Howard is finished yet he persists with playing him out of either blind loyalty or fear of upsetting a member of the clique in the dressing room (alongside osman, Jagielka, Barry and Hibbert).

You then add in how his blind all out attack philosophy backfires on us more often than not hence the 11th place finish last season and our current league standing. I still don't believe he's the right man for the job long term but part of me thinks the league cup has our name on it which will keep him in a job for the next 5 years no matter if we finish 15th in every season as "he won us the cup".