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Roberto Martinez discussion

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There's a cultural overhang from the previous Moyes era. No question in my mind about that. A generation of people have been conned into believing direct football (more especially the variety that doesn't hang around at the back) is the norm for us. It isn't. There's a process of re-education going on and some are resistant to it.

Moyes stoked the crowd's impatience and kow-towed to it. He was a coward of a manger who couldn't or wouldn't attempt to bring Everton into the 21st century as a football outfit. It's left to Martinez to now do all the heavy lifting on that score, and he and his players are getting it in the neck from some 'agricultural' elements in the support.

The 2 manager are total opposites, how many times at 1-1 did Moyes throw on a defender to NOT lose and we did, Martinez wants to win games and will very very rarely make a defensive sub, also Moyes believed in defending to win, Martinez believes in having the ball and keeping the ball wins games
 
There's a cultural overhang from the previous Moyes era. No question in my mind about that. A generation of people have been conned into believing direct football (more especially the variety that doesn't hang around at the back) is the norm for us. It isn't. There's a process of re-education going on and some are resistant to it.

Moyes stoked the crowd's impatience and kow-towed to it. He was a coward of a manger who couldn't or wouldn't attempt to bring Everton into the 21st century as a football outfit. It's left to Martinez to now do all the heavy lifting on that score, and he and his players are getting it in the neck from some 'agricultural' elements in the support.

I am not sure I entirely agree on that. I think towards the end Moyes did try to play more attacking & possession based football. The issue was though that he wasn't particularly effective at it.

I do think there is a re-education process going on. I am not sure it relates as directly to possession football or not. To me it's more about trying to set out to win, being willing to use young players and how to effectively utilise attacking players.

I know for some there is a desire to try and make it a Moyes V Martinez thing. I am not sure it's overly helpful. I think the common trend I see from the "agricultural" aspects of the fan base is an unrealistic expectation placed upon managers, and a desire to bin your manager at any given time when the next flavour of the month comes.

I think the idea that needs to be won with Everton fans is there is no point in sacking managers unless there is overwhelming evidence to prove necessary. Our wage spend/transfer spend is consistent with a side that finishes 10th yet throughout the Moyes and now Martinez era, both have been dogged by the idea we should be winning trophies and finishing in the top 4.

As a club to maximise our opportunities we need to give managers time to build their own squad and get them playing their own way before judging them. This should lead to progress, albeit uneven and not linear progress.

It is natural to want to learn and improve on a previous manager. I think for some there is a blind hate for Moyes now that clouds the judgement of what is good and bad about his regime. In short, I don't think Moyes's league finishes can or should be considered underachievement. His failure to win a trophy will rightly be considered under achievement and I do think Martinez is trying to address that. Likewise having Moyes for a long period was not a bad thing, the club as a whole benefitted. The same will be true of Martinez who like Moyes is a young manager trying to move the club beyond the constrains of what they inherited.
 
I am not sure I entirely agree on that. I think towards the end Moyes did try to play more attacking & possession based football. The issue was though that he wasn't particularly effective at it.

I do think there is a re-education process going on. I am not sure it relates as directly to possession football or not. To me it's more about trying to set out to win, being willing to use young players and how to effectively utilise attacking players.

I know for some there is a desire to try and make it a Moyes V Martinez thing. I am not sure it's overly helpful. I think the common trend I see from the "agricultural" aspects of the fan base is an unrealistic expectation placed upon managers, and a desire to bin your manager at any given time when the next flavour of the month comes.

I think the idea that needs to be won with Everton fans is there is no point in sacking managers unless there is overwhelming evidence to prove necessary. Our wage spend/transfer spend is consistent with a side that finishes 10th yet throughout the Moyes and now Martinez era, both have been dogged by the idea we should be winning trophies and finishing in the top 4.

As a club to maximise our opportunities we need to give managers time to build their own squad and get them playing their own way before judging them. This should lead to progress, albeit uneven and not linear progress.

It is natural to want to learn and improve on a previous manager. I think for some there is a blind hate for Moyes now that clouds the judgement of what is good and bad about his regime. In short, I don't think Moyes's league finishes can or should be considered underachievement. His failure to win a trophy will rightly be considered under achievement and I do think Martinez is trying to address that. Likewise having Moyes for a long period was not a bad thing, the club as a whole benefitted. The same will be true of Martinez who like Moyes is a young manager trying to move the club beyond the constrains of what they inherited.

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It's common knowledge that Howard has been making such media statements. Why would i spend time to bother finding the quotes when fans have already seen them and you're a parody account.

Well done fot winning a game the other day.

If it's common knowledge post some of these quotes.

As you are yet to. And @USABlue has already shown what you've stated is false.

In a veiled attempt to attack Martinez.

@davek
 
I am not sure I entirely agree on that. I think towards the end Moyes did try to play more attacking & possession based football. The issue was though that he wasn't particularly effective at it.

I do think there is a re-education process going on. I am not sure it relates as directly to possession football or not. To me it's more about trying to set out to win, being willing to use young players and how to effectively utilise attacking players.

I know for some there is a desire to try and make it a Moyes V Martinez thing. I am not sure it's overly helpful. I think the common trend I see from the "agricultural" aspects of the fan base is an unrealistic expectation placed upon managers, and a desire to bin your manager at any given time when the next flavour of the month comes.

I think the idea that needs to be won with Everton fans is there is no point in sacking managers unless there is overwhelming evidence to prove necessary. Our wage spend/transfer spend is consistent with a side that finishes 10th yet throughout the Moyes and now Martinez era, both have been dogged by the idea we should be winning trophies and finishing in the top 4.

As a club to maximise our opportunities we need to give managers time to build their own squad and get them playing their own way before judging them. This should lead to progress, albeit uneven and not linear progress.

It is natural to want to learn and improve on a previous manager. I think for some there is a blind hate for Moyes now that clouds the judgement of what is good and bad about his regime. In short, I don't think Moyes's league finishes can or should be considered underachievement. His failure to win a trophy will rightly be considered under achievement and I do think Martinez is trying to address that. Likewise having Moyes for a long period was not a bad thing, the club as a whole benefitted. The same will be true of Martinez who like Moyes is a young manager trying to move the club beyond the constrains of what they inherited.
The football in patches under Moyes in his last season demonstrated that he'd assembled players that could do so much better than he was prepared to get out of them. That was underlined when in the very first season he was out the door that squad played tidy possession football and amassed a record points total in the PL for us. Moyes was a pragmatist and that meant that at the first sign of defensive frailty there'd be no attempt to play anything other than low risk football.

I agree that the expectations around Everton's PL performance are unrealistic and that has a lot to do with attitudes when we hover in or around midtable, and that the hire and fire culture amongst fickle fans has provided a backdrop to the current Everton situation. Which is all contradictory really with the proud boast many also make that we dont operate like other clubs and we give managers time and dont knee-jerk.
 

The football in patches under Moyes in his last season demonstrated that he'd assembled players that could do so much better than he was prepared to get out of them. That was underlined when in the very first season he was out the door that squad played tidy possession football and amassed a record points total in the PL for us. Moyes was a pragmatist and that meant that at the first sign of defensive frailty there'd be no attempt to play anything other than low risk football.

I agree that the expectations around Everton's PL performance are unrealistic and that has a lot to do with attitudes when we hover in or around midtable, and that the hire and fire culture amongst fickle fans has provided a backdrop to the current Everton situation. Which is all contradictory really with the proud boast many also make that we dont operate like other clubs and we give managers time and dont knee-jerk.

True.

In this instant gratification world. You can't build a team. At the first hint of a bump in the road people scream 'sack him'.

It's a sad state of affairs.
 
football is a results business. if managers won every game they would be in a job for life. look at jose at chelsea, won the league and got sacked the next season. we have arguably the best squad for years. whats wrong in wanting a cup or two in return. look at leicester avoiding relegation one season and then topping the table next
 
The football in patches under Moyes in his last season demonstrated that he'd assembled players that could do so much better than he was prepared to get out of them. That was underlined when in the very first season he was out the door that squad played tidy possession football and amassed a record points total in the PL for us. Moyes was a pragmatist and that meant that at the first sign of defensive frailty there'd be no attempt to play anything other than low risk football.

I agree that the expectations around Everton's PL performance are unrealistic and that has a lot to do with attitudes when we hover in or around midtable, and that the hire and fire culture amongst fickle fans has provided a backdrop to the current Everton situation. Which is all contradictory really with the proud boast many also make that we dont operate like other clubs and we give managers time and dont knee-jerk.

Well yes. I think that Moyes built a team that outlived his abilities for where he was at. He was very astute in the transfer market and ended up with lots of good players but not entirely knowing how to use them. Peinaar, Mirallas, Osman would be able to produce attacking displays alongside Baines & Coleman. To pick those up for for under 20 million was some going.

We are always fighting against the modern world really. If a manager has a bad 6 games people want them gone. The era of twitter really. Increasingly football has followed that path. Mourinho is sacked. Would Everton have sacked Catterick/Kendall the season after we won the league?

I think for some, they can't see some of the positives of Kenwright, Moyes & indeed Martinez. I am critical to varying degrees of all of the above, particularly Kenwright, but stability is the best way for us to go. I am old fashioned but I like to see a manager given 5 years to implement their vision and them be judged. Rome wasn't built in a day.
 
Everton are a bottom half club for good now under this guy.

How many times can you score 3 goals and not win and expect to be challenging the top 6/4?

This guy can't set up a defence at any team, in any league.
 


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