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Shocking Refs

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Tree13 said:
Those aren't two separate debates, they're two different views on the same debate.

It's strange that you don't understand the two can co-exist. Simply put, we have been on the rough end of a lot of bad decisions, but in games against "lesser" opposition (ie Reading, Norwich, Fulham) we ALSO played poorly so the ref's bad decisions can hardly be seen as the SOLE reason for dropping points. Against the stronger teams (Newcastle, Arsenal, Man City and, although it pains me to say it, the RS) we played well and can justly complain that the poor decisions were a major factor in dropping points. Equally we played well at QPR but were given a poor call (the penalty not given) and then a ridiculous handicap (reduced to 10 men for a non-existent second yellow) - every right to complain.

It's possible to look at each game not just for poor decisions but also to objectively evaluate the standard of our play and the standard of the opposition, and then work out what we should reasonably expect from our squad against various different opponents. If the players fail to deliver then this needs comment, irrespective of whether the ref has performed well on the day. It's not like a bad ref's shift somehow exonerates the players if they've played poorly in the same game.
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Agree in principle but in nearly all the games we have been the better team which was something hit on earlier in the thread. We've had more shots, chances and possession in nearly all our games.
I am not crying wolf here, but I am also not defending a team that's playing poorly or failing to deliver as you put it as they have been. I never once said the ref's were the sole reason but the team has done enough consistently to be the better team and the list of decisions have all cost us and most are enough to cost us 2 points as a win becomes a draw because of it.

ps agree entirely with your other post.
The two are not exclusive but I (think it was me it was aimed at) was accused of just trying to win a non existent argument and as far as I can tell there are two main themes of debate.. Just wondering which he was referring to.
 
Ihaters said:
Agree in principle but in nearly all the games we have been the better team which was something hit on earlier in the thread. We've had more shots, chances and possession in nearly all our games.
I am not crying wolf here, but I am also not defending a team that's playing poorly or failing to deliver as you put it as they have been. I never once said the ref's were the sole reason but the team has done enough consistently to be the better team and the list of decisions have all cost us and most are enough to cost us 2 points as a win becomes a draw because of it.
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That's not the END of the evaluation though. More shots, chances, possession against Arsenal, Newcastle or City? Great, we've been the better team. They are strong opponents who will likely be slugging it out for top six finishes come the end of the season.

More shots, chances, possession against Fulham, Reading or Norwich? I should bloody hope so - they're not as good a team as us, or any of the teams mentioned in the first group. They'll be lucky to finish in the top ten, and would be ECSTATIC to crack the top eight. We should expect to outclass them in every conceivable category, INCLUDING goals scored. To not demand two or three goals in every game against lesser opposition is to lack ambition.

To demand two or three goals in every game against the likes of Man U, Chelsea, City etc is simply unrealistic, but to accept only sneaking one goal against Norwich on the basis that the ref had a shocker (which I maintain he did NOT) is a total betrayal of the history and standards that this club has built over the decades.
 
So the conclusion is that refs are shocking. Sometimes they shock more than the week before, sometimes less. Our defending has also been shocking at times, sometimes on a par with the ref, sometimes not.

Glad thats all sorted, lets all move along.
 
there's a line in goodfellas when deniro fired his casino employee and the dad asks why and deniro says it was happening around him and he didn't see it then he is incompetent or he knew it was happening and was in on it either way he had to go
 
Tree13 said:
At the risk of throwing fuel on the fire, I'm gonna have to say that the ref was poor in the city game BUT his penalty decision was right. It's contradictory to complain that we should have got the penalty for Arteta's hacking down of Pienaar on Wednesday whilst ALSO saying that Felli on Dzeko shouldn't have been given.

I lost count of the number of times Barry and Toure kicked and pushed our players yesterday. One particular passage of play saw Toure kick Fellaini's leg, then kick him between the legs, then kick his shin and then Barry came steaming in shoulder first and flattened Fellaini. No yellow. Absolutely ridiculous.

Barry delivered another bodycheck in similar fashion later on, and both Toure and Kompany repeatedly grabbed Jelavic and Fellaini and threw them to the floor. At one point towards the end, Jela knocked the ball bast the defender and then launched INTO the defender shoulder first, clearly having had enough. We got the free kick (it was the one jela then drilled in low, forcing a parried save from Hart) but it demonstrated what a rough deal Jela had been getting.

I thought we looked better yesterday generally, just as we did against Arsenal. The performances in both of those games were vastly improvements on what we saw against Norwich, Reading and Fulham.
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Problem being with the penalty there were 2 other incidents of City players doing the same as Fellaini (and earlier) why no freekick for them? If it was a pen then it should have been a freekick, and therefore no pen
 

Tree13 said:
To demand two or three goals in every game against the likes of Man U, Chelsea, City etc is simply unrealistic, but to accept only sneaking one goal against Norwich on the basis that the ref had a shocker (which I maintain he did NOT) is a total betrayal of the history and standards that this club has built over the decades.
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Oh okay, don't want to do that, i'll stop defending our players and ignore the referees decisions immediately.
 
toffeejack said:
probert ref for WHU vs Liverpool. nailed on not to give a pen for a shirt pull by one of the RS players
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Depends if he brings his 8 pairs of eyes or not. If he does see every single shirt pull or arm grab in the area he will award fouls for every one of them, if he only brings 1 pair of eyes he will award the blatant 1 way foul he sees rather than the other 50/50 both players fouling that he doesn't see.
 

Forgetting about Everton for a minute........

So in Newcastle/Wigan, is the ref right for not booking the 2 Newcastle players for bad tackles cause its early and he used common sense, or is he wrong because they should be booked regardless?

Was the pen a push or shoulder to shoulder.

Newcastle fans will see it one way, Wigan fans the other.

Most refs aren't shocking. They give decisions as they see after only getting 1 chance at full speed when often having to try and see many different things at once. Its a very hard job and a lot of decisions are simply guess work, even the ones they get right.

Quite frankly i think its ridiculous the amount of abuse and descriptions of being **** and shocking they get from people who just don't understand what is involved in reffing a game and think because they watched a slow mo reply 7 times on skysports that a ref who didn't have that priviledge isn't any good.
 
So, in the Newcastle/Wigan game, Wigan go down to 10 with Figueroa bundling Cisse over in the box. If it's a foul, it's a red card as he's last man.

I think there were big parallels with the Arteta/Pienaar incident from last week, but we got nowt (without it being last man, but it was a not dissimilar foul). Add into the mix the Man City penalty, am I fair in thinking we've had a real load of decisions against us this season? Don't get me going on the Newcastle game, amongst others where we've been screwed over.

*should point out that I firmly think our poor finishing and poor defending are bigger reasons for us not having more points. But it's becoming increasingly noticeable the decisions this season. Really think we've had a lot of rough calls.
 

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