The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

Who will you be voting for?

  • Tory

    Votes: 38 9.9%
  • Diet Tory (Labour)

    Votes: 132 34.3%
  • Tory Zero (Greens)

    Votes: 44 11.4%
  • Extra Tory with lemon (UKIP)

    Votes: 40 10.4%
  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 9 2.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 31 8.1%
  • Cheese on toast

    Votes: 91 23.6%

  • Total voters
    385
  • Poll closed .
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Even Adam Smith, the great free-market advocate, believed that the division of labour, to the extreme extent we have in neoliberal societies was a terrible idea. Most people will have read the first few pages of wealth of nations where he argues the merits of labour division but won't have read a few chapters into it where he states that if labour becomes too divided then the labourforce become nothing more than drones. Chomsky explains it better than me but most of the ammunition used by the new right seems to be misrepresented or narrowly taken on board. Fukuyama, Friedman etc. all later distanced themselves from what we call capitalism today and the vampiric nature of neoliberalism.

http://www.chomsky.info/books/warfare02.htm

DAVID BARSAMIAN: One of the heroes of the current right-wing revival... is Adam Smith. You've done some pretty impressive research on Smith that has excavated... a lot of information that's not coming out. You've often quoted him describing the "vile maxim of the masters of mankind: all for ourselves and nothing for other people."

NOAM CHOMSKY: I didn't do any research at all on Smith. I just read him. There's no research. Just read it. He's pre-capitalist, a figure of the Enlightenment. What we would call capitalism he despised. People read snippets of Adam Smith, the few phrases they teach in school. Everybody reads the first paragraph of The Wealth of Nations where he talks about how wonderful the division of labor is. But not many people get to the point hundreds of pages later, where he says that division of labor will destroy human beings and turn people into creatures as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human being to be. And therefore in any civilized society the government is going to have to take some measures to prevent division of labor from proceeding to its limits.

He did give an argument for markets, but the argument was that under conditions of perfect liberty, markets will lead to perfect equality. That's the argument for them, because he thought that equality of condition (not just opportunity) is what you should be aiming at. It goes on and on. He gave a devastating critique of what we would call North-South policies. He was talking about England and India. He bitterly condemned the British experiments they were carrying out which were devastating India.

He also made remarks which ought to be truisms about the way states work. He pointed out that its totally senseless to talk about a nation and what we would nowadays call "national interests." He simply observed in passing, because it's so obvious, that in England, which is what he's discussing -- and it was the most democratic society of the day -- the principal architects of policy are the "merchants and manufacturers," and they make certain that their own interests are, in his words, "most peculiarly attended to," no matter what the effect on others, including the people of England who, he argued, suffered from their policies. He didn't have the data to prove it at the time, but he was probably right.

This truism was, a century later, called class analysis, but you don't have to go to Marx to find it. It's very explicit in Adam Smith. It's so obvious that any ten-year-old can see it. So he didn't make a big point of it. He just mentioned it. But that's correct. If you read through his work, he's intelligent. He's a person who was from the Enlightenment. His driving motives were the assumption that people were guided by sympathy and feelings of solidarity and the need for control of their own work, much like other Enlightenment and early Romantic thinkers. He's part of that period, the Scottish Enlightenment.

The version of him that's given today is just ridiculous. But I didn't have to any research to find this out. All you have to do is read. If you're literate, you'll find it out. I did do a little research in the way it's treated, and that's interesting. For example, the University of Chicago, the great bastion of free market economics, etc., etc., published a bicentennial edition of the hero, a scholarly edition with all the footnotes and the introduction by a Nobel Prize winner, George Stigler, a huge index, a real scholarly edition. That's the one I used. It's the best edition. The scholarly framework was very interesting, including Stigler's introduction. It's likely he never opened The Wealth of Nations. Just about everything he said about the book was completely false. I went through a bunch of examples in writing about it, in Year 501 and elsewhere.

But even more interesting in some ways was the index. Adam Smith is very well known for his advocacy of division of labor. Take a look at "division of labor" in the index and there are lots and lots of things listed. But there's one missing, namely his denunciation of division of labor, the one I just cited. That's somehow missing from the index. It goes on like this. I wouldn't call this research because it's ten minutes' work, but if you look at the scholarship, then it's interesting.

I want to be clear about this. There is good Smith scholarship. If you look at the serious Smith scholarship, nothing I'm saying is any surprise to anyone. How could it be? You open the book and you read it and it's staring you right in the face. On the other hand if you look at the myth of Adam Smith, which is the only one we get, the discrepancy between that and the reality is enormous.

This is true of classical liberalism in general. The founders of classical liberalism, people like Adam Smith and Wilhelm von Humboldt, who is one of the great exponents of classical liberalism, and who inspired John Stuart Mill -- they were what we would call libertarian socialists, at least that ïs the way I read them. For example, Humboldt, like Smith, says, Consider a craftsman who builds some beautiful thing. Humboldt says if he does it under external coercion, like pay, for wages, we may admire what he does but we despise what he is. On the other hand, if he does it out of his own free, creative expression of himself, under free will, not under external coercion of wage labor, then we also admire what he is because he's a human being. He said any decent socioeconomic system will be based on the assumption that people have the freedom to inquire and create -- since that's the fundamental nature of humans -- in free association with others, but certainly not under the kinds of external constraints that came to be called capitalism.

It's the same when you read Jefferson. He lived a half century later, so he saw state capitalism developing, and he despised it, of course. He said it's going to lead to a form of absolutism worse than the one we defended ourselves against. In fact, if you run through this whole period you see a very clear, sharp critique of what we would later call capitalism and certainly of the twentieth century version of it, which is designed to destroy individual, even entrepreneurial capitalism.

There's a side current here which is rarely looked at but which is also quite fascinating. That's the working class literature of the nineteenth century. They didn't read Adam Smith and Wilhelm von Humboldt, but they're saying the same things. Read journals put out by the people called the "factory girls of Lowell," young women in the factories, mechanics, and other working people who were running their own newspapers. It's the same kind of critique. There was a real battle fought by working people in England and the U.S. to defend themselves against what they called the degradation and oppression and violence of the industrial capitalist system, which was not only dehumanizing them but was even radically reducing their intellectual level. So, you go back to the mid-nineteenth century and these so-called "factory girls," young girls working in the Lowell [Massachusetts] mills, were reading serious contemporary literature. They recognized that the point of the system was to turn them into tools who would be manipulated, degraded, kicked around, and so on. And they fought against it bitterly for a long period. That's the history of the rise of capitalism.

So labour has become so specialised that people are doing mindless tasks? I would have thought the opposite may be true, that such is the breadth of human knowledge that we have to become uber-specialised in a narrow field, but even then, there is a growing appreciation for generalists.

Regarding the craftsman analogy, only recently I was at an event hosted by Etsy on self-employment. If you're not familiar with Etsy, they're a marketplace for craftsmen to buy/sell their wares. Whilst optimists were espousing this as liberating and wonderful, there were many in attendance who were concerned about the erosion of social contracts such as maternity pay, sick pay, even pension provision (or in the US - healthcare).

As Ronald Coarse said, companies are only created when the communication costs of co-ordinating each person individually are more than the costs of doing so via a firm. Platforms like Etsy are eroding those communication costs, but I don't know if we can say that's resoundingly positive as there are some real issues involved too (and I say that as someone doing largely that - albeit not in a craft field).
 
And Friedman advocated the regulation of corporations and forcing them to be more socially responsible. Basically all of the denizens of free market thinking all believe that today's cowboy capitalist societies were planting the seeds for their own downfall. If those arguments came from the left I could dismiss them but the fact that the thinkers that right wing advocates argue the case for have all seen the damage that it can cause if unrestricted, makes them more interesting to me.

http://www.bath.ac.uk/management/cri/pubpdf/Research_Reports/16_Bichta.pdf
 
£10 an hour would bring us into line with 'a lot of countries'. Right. That's why our minimum wage is only lower than 6 other countries, and the highest is £9.10 per hour.

You do realize that a lot of countries have no need to have a minimum wage due to strong unions who bargain for higher wages? So sure, of the countries that actually have minimum wages were 7th (still not very flattering), you are neglecting to include all the countries such as Sweden, Norway etc which all have a higher wage for the same jobs and a higher standard of living. So to raise the minimum wage would bring us in line with these countries.
 
You do realize that a lot of countries have no need to have a minimum wage due to strong unions who bargain for higher wages? So sure, of the countries that actually have minimum wages were 7th (still not very flattering), you are neglecting to include all the countries such as Sweden, Norway etc which all have a higher wage for the same jobs and a higher standard of living. So to raise the minimum wage would bring us in line with these countries.

I'm not neglecting anything mate. I was simply responding to a point blank comparison of minimum wages in different countries. Well aware it's a daft comparison as there are many different things which impact standard of living in different nations and you can't just make a comparison like that and try to get anything meaningful from it.

Would be a bit like me living in Hull, getting £6.50 an hour and telling somebody in central London it's a liveable wage.

Point is, i don't think £10 an hour is a logical aim for a minimum wage in this country.
 

I'm sure there has been some thought as to why £8 vs £9 or any other figure, I was just wondering what that thinking was.

Because the change needs to be gradual to allow employers to adjust. Over the last 5 years, the minimum wage has gone up 50p. Labour claim that over the next 5 years, they want it increase by £1.50. Surely this is a good thing?
 
You do realize that a lot of countries have no need to have a minimum wage due to strong unions who bargain for higher wages? So sure, of the countries that actually have minimum wages were 7th (still not very flattering), you are neglecting to include all the countries such as Sweden, Norway etc which all have a higher wage for the same jobs and a higher standard of living. So to raise the minimum wage would bring us in line with these countries.

Spot on. Also, the list doesn't take into account the finances and cost of living for each country.
 
And Friedman advocated the regulation of corporations and forcing them to be more socially responsible. Basically all of the denizens of free market thinking all believe that today's cowboy capitalist societies were planting the seeds for their own downfall. If those arguments came from the left I could dismiss them but the fact that the thinkers that right wing advocates argue the case for have all seen the damage that it can cause if unrestricted, makes them more interesting to me.

http://www.bath.ac.uk/management/cri/pubpdf/Research_Reports/16_Bichta.pdf

I think the way the banks got bailed out was wrong, and especially now that any risk of failure for them seems to have been socialised. People need to take responsibility for their actions, whether that's a bank or a nation like Greece.

The best organisations are valuable members of society, I don't think that's in any doubt, but there are some stinkers. The issue for me isn't how do we stop bad organisations emerging (whether public or private), as human nature seems to assure that of happening now and then, but what recourse do we (as society) have should an organisation screw up?

All of the people here that would have voted Labour in the last election had no option but to swallow whatever the Tories offered over the last 5 years. That can't be right, not in a so called free society. If you don't agree with how something is done you shouldn't be forced to swallow it, regardless of whether it's public or private.
 
Because the change needs to be gradual to allow employers to adjust. Over the last 5 years, the minimum wage has gone up 50p. Labour claim that over the next 5 years, they want it increase by £1.50. Surely this is a good thing?

Of course it would be a good thing for wages to go up, but they should only go up because productivity has gone up. That's something that doesn't seem to get spoken about much. There's a lot of talk about the economy growing, yet most of that has come courtesy of printing around a few hundred billion of new money, you'd expect it to grow with that amount swilling about. Productivity however has actually fallen.

As Esk said earlier, he was quite happy to pay his staff good wages but he demanded productivity to be strong as a result. Upping wages without that is like writing a blank cheque. If the wages go up naturally via the market then the > productivity can be taken as a given, but not if the wage increase is legislated. All that will do is either increase inflation or put people out of work (or both).
 

All of the people here that would have voted Labour in the last election had no option but to swallow whatever the Tories offered over the last 5 years. That can't be right, not in a so called free society. If you don't agree with how something is done you shouldn't be forced to swallow it, regardless of whether it's public or private.

What is the alternative?
 
Of course it would be a good thing for wages to go up, but they should only go up because productivity has gone up. That's something that doesn't seem to get spoken about much. There's a lot of talk about the economy growing, yet most of that has come courtesy of printing around a few hundred billion of new money, you'd expect it to grow with that amount swilling about. Productivity however has actually fallen.

As Esk said earlier, he was quite happy to pay his staff good wages but he demanded productivity to be strong as a result. Upping wages without that is like writing a blank cheque. If the wages go up naturally via the market then the > productivity can be taken as a given, but not if the wage increase is legislated. All that will do is either increase inflation or put people out of work (or both).

The very same argument could have been made in 1999 when Labour introduced the minimum wage. As it turns out, it meant that few companies could get away with paying its employees too small an amount. As it turns out, with the decline of Union support, the minimum wage was desperately needed.
 
And plenty pay them far less. In Czech for instance, the average wage is around £7-800 a month. Does that mean we should drop the minimum wage to that level or do we accept that things are different there to here?

No, we aspire to be like fairer countries who treat their workforce with more respect than we do.

"The measure of a civilisation can be judged on how it treats it's weakest members".
 

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