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The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

Who will you be voting for?

  • Tory

    Votes: 38 9.9%
  • Diet Tory (Labour)

    Votes: 132 34.3%
  • Tory Zero (Greens)

    Votes: 44 11.4%
  • Extra Tory with lemon (UKIP)

    Votes: 40 10.4%
  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 9 2.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 31 8.1%
  • Cheese on toast

    Votes: 91 23.6%

  • Total voters
    385
  • Poll closed .
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This is a self selecting game though Bruce. The poor who become great engineers or designers etc were almost always going to succeed because of their talent, their belief, determination etc. The point about inequality though is not that some talented kids get through and succeed, it's that if you take two equally talented kids from different economic backgrounds then the chances of success are greater for the kid from a better economic position regardless of the fact that they're equally talented.

Hence one of the reasons why the gap between the haves and have nots increase. The wealthier kid starts at an economic advantage by virtue of having some wealth and is more likely to increase that wealth as his life chances are greater as a result of the wealth itself. Therefore you get a double whammy, those with wealth collectively earn more, whilst those without wealth collectively earn less because of reduced opportunity.

That added to the peculiar economic circumstances of the last 7 or 8 years were asset values have been driven up by quantitative easing (as the value of money falls, real assets increase in value) and the real value of incomes (the only source of wealth creation for those without capital) have fallen, plus the opportunity gap created by wealth differences has increased.

Firstly I don't believe in 'god given talent'. You achieve mastery of a topic (or sport, or whatever) through a whole lot of hard work. The whole 10,000 hours thing is a bit hackneyed, but it illustrates the point well enough.

So if we assume hard work and determination are key to achieving that mastery of a topic, are we saying here really that the state school system is a complete waste of time because it does nothing to help those who can't (or won't) help themselves? Surely the whole point of free state schooling is to give everyone a good opportunity in life. I'm not saying it has to be comparable to Eton, but it's a good opportunity (and I'm led to believe that state schools, and their teachers, are exceptional).

I'm not worried about the kid at Eton having a better chance than the kid from the council estate, that inequality will be inevitable to an extent. If that family don't send their kid to Eton they'll probably invest in private tutors or a load of educational trips or whatever.

What worries me is this apparent belief that after 70 years of free schooling to every child in the land, we still seem to be in a situation where the several thousand hours of free tuition that provides is not enough to either ignite the desire to learn nor give certain children the skills to get on in life.

It kind of suggests that we've got no real grasp on the crux of the problem doesn't it, because whatever we've tried thus far has done very little to shift social mobility?
 
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...conditions-inequality-child-poverty?CMP=fb_gu


Many children are living in Victorian conditions – it’s an inequality timebomb
Frances Ryan


What does it mean to be one of the richest countries in the world? I wondered this as I read through the report by the Children’s Commission on Poverty (CCP) at the end of last year, in which British children describe the hunger that comes with not being able to afford lunch, or the wait for a “good day” when their mum has 25p spare for a snack. I was reminded of this by the teaching union NASUWT’s warning this week that there are children in this country living in “Victorian conditions”, turning to charity for regular meals and going without a winter coat.

Britain’s economic recovery can be felt in the lives of “hardworking taxpayers”, David Cameron claimed at a rally on Easter Monday. Yet children are coming to school in dirty or fraying clothes, eight in 10 teachers surveyed report. Other children are vanishing halfway through the term, evicted and without a home near their school to go back to. I imagine it is difficult for them to feel the coalition’s economic recovery – if only their parents had worked harder.

The union’s message is clear: the financial crisis is impacting on the poorest children’s attainment. Hungry and tired children cannot concentrate in class. Living in a cramped flat or temporary accommodation means doing maths on your knee or producing English coursework with no internet, let alone your own laptop. Teenagers who are worrying whether their parents can pay this month’s rent are likely to become withdrawn, not confident students ready for university interviews.

There is no such thing as an equal life chance in Britain. This will not be news to the former free school meals child now scrubbing toilets for a minimum wage, or to the Eton alumni born to sit in Downing Street. The system is rigged – and it is rigged in favour of the ones who don’t need the advantage. That is the greatest irony of inequality and education: the school system is both the emancipation of the working class and confirmation of its place. Austerity’s architects could never have thought that growing inequality – where the elite have seen their fortunes rocket as the poorest suffer – would do anything but worsen this.

As further evidence of this, the educational “achievement gap” between richer and poorer children is widening, as of this year. Only one in three disadvantaged pupils is hitting the government’s GCSE pass target – compared with over 60% of their richer peers. And the education system literally divides children along class lines – our schools are among the most socially segregated in the developed world. We group together children of immigrants: 80% are taught in schools with “high concentrations” of other immigrant or disadvantaged pupils. Poorly educated parents – defined as those who don’t have five good GCSEs – see their kids taught together, shut away from advantaged children. Meanwhile, private schools continue to let privilege buy privilege. The best comprehensives and academies practice social selection by stealth, siphoning out the poor kids on free school meals.

“[Eating] depends really on what my mum’s situation is,” one child explained to the CCP inquiry. “If I don’t have the money I normally just wait until I get home [from school]. Or me and my friends always share food about and they normally give me something.”

It is comforting to pretend this sort of poverty is inevitable, as if inequality were genetic rather than the product of conscious political decisions. Choices have consequences and austerity is not good at hiding them: be it the children in the communities where low pay and benefit cuts have pushed more than half into poverty , or food bank signs among leafy, red-brick mansions.

But inequality goes deeper than what is visible. It is stigma, exclusion, and stagnated opportunity. We have become used to framing economics in short-termism. Why wouldn’t we? Poverty makes a habit of immediacy. High rents and unstable or low paid work force finding your children’s next meal to become the priority. This coalition has enshrined a culture of desperation, where some parents have to beg or steal for food, and even emergency council loans are taken from them. This damage is lasting.

In a decade from now there will be a second crisis, when the children currently learning while tired and hungry will be expected to compete in a labour market against the offspring of the families who were able to provide the luxury of a desk and regular meals. That is how inequality works. Today’s “Victorian conditions” will define tomorrow’s too. This government has sat back as a whole section of society is locked into long-term poverty.

It is 2015 and children in this country are going to school hungry, as they sit in class in dirty uniforms. Where exactly do we expect them to be in 2025? Austerity is starving the poorest out of their future.
 
I'm not worried about the kid at Eton having a better chance than the kid from the council estate, that inequality will be inevitable to an extent.

This is the bit you should be really worried about Bruce, because it is this bit that creates a situation where the judiciary, the parliamentarians, policy makers, business leaders and even academics become massively over-represented by people from privileged backgrounds who with the best will in the world are not equipped to make the changes necessary to change these circumstances. Sadly many do not even see the need for change either.

I will return to your other points later :)

Football beckons!
 
Firstly I don't believe in 'god given talent'. You achieve mastery of a topic (or sport, or whatever) through a whole lot of hard work. The whole 10,000 hours thing is a bit hackneyed, but it illustrates the point well enough.

You don't believe that some children are more talented than others in different areas? Hmmm.

So if we assume hard work and determination are key to achieving that mastery of a topic, are we saying here really that the state school system is a complete waste of time because it does nothing to help those who can't (or won't) help themselves?

Blaming the poor for being poor again, Bruce. Naughty.

Surely the whole point of free state schooling is to give everyone a good opportunity in life. I'm not saying it has to be comparable to Eton, but it's a good opportunity (and I'm led to believe that state schools, and their teachers, are exceptional).

Well, they certainly do their best in, shall we say, exceptional circumstances.


I'm not worried about the kid at Eton having a better chance than the kid from the council estate, that inequality will be inevitable to an extent. If that family don't send their kid to Eton they'll probably invest in private tutors or a load of educational trips or whatever.

What worries me is this apparent belief that after 70 years of free schooling to every child in the land, we still seem to be in a situation where the several thousand hours of free tuition that provides is not enough to either ignite the desire to learn nor give certain children the skills to get on in life.

It kind of suggests that we've got no real grasp on the crux of the problem doesn't it, because whatever we've tried thus far has done very little to shift social mobility?

The thing is, Bruce, your political beliefs entrench social immobility and you can't even see it. The Right has no real interest in social mobility. Why would they? They'd like to think that we get to the top by hard work and determination (thus implying that if you're poor then it must be your fault for being poor) but then they deny the existence of barriers which must be in place to prevent that social mobility.

They say they're not concerned about inequality since - fingers crossed - some wealth should trickle down to the kids in the slums. And I find that really telling. There is no compassion in their analysis of the situation. For all their rhetoric about "hard working families" there is zero respect for the working class or the unemployed. Just contempt.
 
This is the bit you should be really worried about Bruce, because it is this bit that creates a situation where the judiciary, the parliamentarians, policy makers, business leaders and even academics become massively over-represented by people from privileged backgrounds who with the best will in the world are not equipped to make the changes necessary to change these circumstances. Sadly many do not even see the need for change either.

I will return to your other points later :)

Football beckons!

Evidence would suggest that those from privileged backgrounds aren't just ill equipped, many of them simply don't care.



How Wealth Reduces Compassion

As riches grow, empathy for others seems to decline

April 10, 2012 |By Daisy Grewal

••

Who is more likely to lie, cheat, and steal—the poor person or the rich one? It’s temping to think that the wealthier you are, the more likely you are to act fairly. After all, if you already have enough for yourself, it’s easier to think about what others may need. But research suggests the opposite is true: as people climb the social ladder, their compassionate feelings towards other people decline.

Berkeley psychologists Paul Piff and Dacher Keltner ran several studies looking at whether social class (as measured by wealth, occupational prestige, and education) influences how much we care about the feelings of others. In one study, Piff and his colleagues discreetly observed the behavior of drivers at a busy four-way intersection. They found that luxury car drivers were more likely to cut off other motorists instead of waiting for their turn at the intersection. This was true for both men and women upper-class drivers, regardless of the time of day or the amount of traffic at the intersection. In a different study they found that luxury car drivers were also more likely to speed past a pedestrian trying to use a crosswalk, even after making eye contact with the pedestrian.

In order to figure out whether selfishness leads to wealth (rather than vice versa), Piff and his colleagues ran a study where they manipulated people’s class feelings. The researchers asked participants to spend a few minutes comparing themselves either to people better off or worse off than themselves financially. Afterwards, participants were shown a jar of candy and told that they could take home as much as they wanted. They were also told that the leftover candy would be given to children in a nearby laboratory. Those participants who had spent time thinking about how much better off they were compared to others ended up taking significantly more candy for themselves--leaving less behind for the children.

A related set of studies published by Keltner and his colleagues last year looked at how social class influences feelings of compassion towards people who are suffering. In one study, they found that less affluent individuals are more likely to report feeling compassion towards others on a regular basis. For example, they are more likely to agree with statements such as, “I often notice people who need help,” and “It’s important to take care of people who are vulnerable.” This was true even after controlling for other factors that we know affect compassionate feelings, such as gender, ethnicity, and spiritual beliefs.

In a second study, participants were asked to watch two videos while having their heart rate monitored. One video showed somebody explaining how to build a patio. The other showed children who were suffering from cancer. After watching the videos, participants indicated how much compassion they felt while watching either video. Social class was measured by asking participants questions about their family’s level of income and education. The results of the study showed that participants on the lower end of the spectrum, with less income and education, were more likely to report feeling compassion while watching the video of the cancer patients. In addition, their heart rates slowed down while watching the cancer video—a response that is associated with paying greater attention to the feelings and motivations of others.

These findings build upon previous research showing how upper class individuals are worse at recognizing the emotions of others and less likely to pay attention to people they are interacting with (e.g. by checking their cell phones or doodling).

But why would wealth and status decrease our feelings of compassion for others? After all, it seems more likely that having few resources would lead to selfishness. Piff and his colleagues suspect that the answer may have something to do with how wealth and abundance give us a sense of freedom and independence from others. The less we have to rely on others, the less we may care about their feelings. This leads us towards being more self-focused. Another reason has to do with our attitudes towards greed. Like Gordon Gekko, upper-class people may be more likely to endorse the idea that “greed is good.” Piff and his colleagues found that wealthier people are more likely to agree with statements that greed is justified, beneficial, and morally defensible. These attitudes ended up predicting participants’ likelihood of engaging in unethical behavior.

Given the growing income inequality in the United States, the relationship between wealth and compassion has important implications. Those who hold most of the power in this country, political and otherwise, tend to come from privileged backgrounds. If social class influences how much we care about others, then the most powerful among us may be the least likely to make decisions that help the needy and the poor. They may also be the most likely to engage in unethical behavior. Keltner and Piff recently speculated in the New York Times about how their research helps explain why Goldman Sachs and other high-powered financial corporations are breeding grounds for greedy behavior. Although greed is a universal human emotion, it may have the strongest pull over those of who already have the most.
 

The Price of Inequality by Nobel prize winning economist, Joseph Stiglitz:

http://resistir.info/livros/stiglitz_the_price_of_inequality.pdf

NYTIMES review of above book:


Joseph E. Stiglitz’s new book, “The Price of Inequality,” is the single most comprehensive counterargument to both Democratic neoliberalism and Republican laissez-faire theories. While credible economists running the gamut from center right to center left describe our bleak present as the result of seemingly unstoppable developments — globalization and automation, a self-replicating establishment built on “meritocratic” competition, the debt-driven collapse of 2008 — Stiglitz stands apart in his defiant rejection of such notions of inevitability. He seeks to shift the terms of the debate.


  • It is not uncontrollable technological and social change that has produced a two-tier society, Stiglitz argues, but the exercise of political power by moneyed interests over legislative and regulatory processes. “While there may be underlying economic forces at play,” he writes, “politics have shaped the market, and shaped it in ways that advantage the top at the expense of the rest.” But politics, he insists, is subject to change.

    Stiglitz is a Nobel laureate and a professor of economics at Columbia (where I too teach, but we are not personally acquainted). He holds a commanding position in an intellectual insurgency challenging the dominant economic orthodoxy. Among his allies are Jacob S. Hacker and Paul Pierson (the authors of “Winner-Take-All Politics: How Washington Made the Rich Richer — and Turned Its Back on the Middle Class”); Lawrence Lessig (“Republic, Lost: How Money Corrupts Congress — and a Plan to Stop It”); Timothy Noah (“The Great Divergence: America’s Growing Inequality Crisis and What We Can Do About It”) and Paul Krugman (“End This Depression Now!”). The collective argument of these dissidents is not only that inequality violates moral values, but that it also interacts with a money-driven political system to grant excessive power to the most affluent. In short, those with power use it to insulate themselves from competitive forces by winning favorable tax treatment, government-protected market share and other forms of what economists call “rent seeking.”

    Conservative advocates of pure free markets, in this view, fail to acknowledge how concentrated economic power converts into political power. The right, for example, has hailed the evisceration of the estate tax and the lifting of restrictions on campaign contributions, despite evidence that such policies work to restrict competition — by further concentrating wealth in the case of the estate tax, and by further empowering corporate America to control political decisions in the case of campaign finance.

    Stiglitz and his allies argue that a free and competitive market is highly beneficial to society at large, but that it needs government regulation and oversight to remain functional. Without constraint, dominant interests use their leverage to make gains at the expense of the majority. Concentration of power in private hands, Stiglitz believes, can be just as damaging to the functioning of markets as excessive regulation and political control.

    The importance of Stiglitz’s contribution (and that of other dissidents) to the public debate cannot be overestimated. The news media and the Congress are ill-equipped to address the role of economic power in shaping policy. Both institutions are, in fact, unaware of the extent to which they themselves are subject to the influence of money.

    Stiglitz describes the economic capture of regulatory authorities by the interests under their jurisdiction — and the more subtle intellectual capture of policy makers of all kinds. The calculated and purposeful shaping of public discussion allowed conservative analyses to dominate debate in the years before the collapse of 2008, and in the years since they have been dominant as well.

    It is not just democratic politics that is threatened by huge disparities in wealth and income. Much of Stiglitz’s book is devoted to demonstrating that excessive inequality amounts to sand in the gears of capitalism, creating volatility, fueling crises, undermining productivity and retarding growth. Just as discrimination results in the failure of a nation to make the best use of all its citizens, inequality, when it leads to inadequate schooling, housing and neighborhood conditions for large numbers of people, acts in a similarly destructive fashion.

    Stiglitz succinctly summarized his own argument in a recent online column: “Inequality leads to lower growth and less efficiency. Lack of opportunity means that its most valuable asset — its people — is not being fully used. Many at the bottom, or even in the middle, are not living up to their potential, because the rich, needing few public services and worried that a strong government might redistribute income, use their political influence to cut taxes and curtail government spending. This leads to underinvestment in infrastructure, education and technology, impeding the engines of growth. . . . Most importantly, America’s inequality is undermining its values and identity. With inequality reaching such extremes, it is not surprising that its effects are manifest in every public decision, from the conduct of monetary policy to budgetary allocations. America has become a country not ‘with justice for all,’ but rather with favoritism for the rich and justice for those who can afford it — so evident in the foreclosure crisis, in which the big banks believed that they were too big not only to fail, but also to be held accountable.”

    Stiglitz wrote “The Price of Inequality” at the height of the uprisings in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt, and the Occupy Wall Street movement here in the United States. These revolts against established power helped make him optimistic about the prospect of change in the future. But he seems more sanguine at the beginning of his book — “There are moments in history when people all over the world seem to rise up, to say that something is wrong” — than at the end, which concludes on a note of warning: “Time, however, may be running out. Four years ago there was a moment” — the 2008 election — “where most Americans had the audacity to hope. Trends more than a quarter of a century in the making might have been reversed. Instead, they have worsened. Today that hope is flickering.

    Circumstances in the summer of 2012 justify Stiglitz’s more apprehensive conclusion. Prospects for programs boosting public investment are virtually nil. Republicans stand a good chance of taking control of both branches of Congress after the next election. Their presumptive presidential nominee, Mitt Romney, may capture the White House. If so, his tax and regulatory proposals will most likely embody all that Stiglitz finds repugnant. Even if Romney loses, the American political system does not appear ready to respond to Stiglitz’s call to arms.

    Stiglitz may prove most prescient when he warns of a society governed by “rules of the game that weaken the bargaining strength of workers vis-à-vis capital.” At present, he says,“the dearth of jobs and the asymmetries in globalization have created competition for jobs in which workers have lost and the owners of capital have won.” We are becoming a country “in which the rich live in gated communities, send their children to expensive schools and have access to first-rate medical care. Meanwhile, the rest live in a world marked by insecurity, at best mediocre education and in effect rationed health care.” Except for a brief period in 2008-9, when the stock market decline hit the wealthy the hardest, the trends would seem to be moving toward Stiglitz’s pessimistic vision of the future, with little prospect of change no matter who wins office on Nov. 6.
 
This is the bit you should be really worried about Bruce, because it is this bit that creates a situation where the judiciary, the parliamentarians, policy makers, business leaders and even academics become massively over-represented by people from privileged backgrounds who with the best will in the world are not equipped to make the changes necessary to change these circumstances. Sadly many do not even see the need for change either.

I will return to your other points later :)

Football beckons!

I don't doubt that, but the situation is irrelevant. What matters is how you react to the situation. You have a group of people who are willing to invest heavily, both in money and time, to ensure their children have a good education. Even if you ban private schools, that will remain, and other routes will be taken to invest that time and money in other ways.

The flipside is improving things for all. Is that not what we've strived for for the last sixty years? State education has been available for that long, with expenditure on education doubling under Blair. There has recently been a substantial investment in nursery schooling.

Likewise, as you can see from the chart below, our spending on welfare has grown enormously since the formation of the welfare state.

ukgs_line.php


Yet despite all of that, social mobility has not changed at all. It's not that I don't want poorer folks to do well in life, of course I do, I'm just not at all convinced that what we've done thus has made much difference at all. The evidence seems to suggest that isn't the case at all. I mean I spoke about STEM in my previous post, studies suggest that there are 8.5 million adults in England and Northern Ireland with math levels of a 10 year old. That's even with over 10 years of mandatory maths teaching. Something's going wrong somewhere isn't it?

You don't believe that some children are more talented than others in different areas? Hmmm.

I think talent is irrelevant without hard work. Sounds like you're stuck in a 'fixed' mindset (which I hope is not the case).

http://mindsetonline.com/whatisit/about/

Blaming the poor for being poor again, Bruce. Naughty.

I don't mention money in the bit you quote at all. I mention hard work. Do you see how the two are different?

The thing is, Bruce, your political beliefs entrench social immobility and you can't even see it. The Right has no real interest in social mobility. Why would they? They'd like to think that we get to the top by hard work and determination (thus implying that if you're poor then it must be your fault for being poor) but then they deny the existence of barriers which must be in place to prevent that social mobility.

They say they're not concerned about inequality since - fingers crossed - some wealth should trickle down to the kids in the slums. And I find that really telling. There is no compassion in their analysis of the situation. For all their rhetoric about "hard working families" there is zero respect for the working class or the unemployed. Just contempt.

The sad thing is that I think your mindset entrenches it far more than mine if you're communicating this belief that talent is inbuilt and poor kids go into life with a huge disadvantage then it's hardly surprising that they don't aspire isn't it?

In countless studies, the keys to success in life (from a personality perspective) have been identified as an open mind, and the conscientiousness to do your best in whatever you're attempting.

Are we really saying that if a poor child does those things then they are destined to fail in modern Britain?
 
The proper response to the belief that kids do not have particular talents would have to be so long that I leave it to others. For my part, all I can be bothered to say is that it's totally, utterly and spectacularly wrong.

More interesting, and getting back to topic, is the question of how that talent is nurtured and developed.
 

The proper response to the belief that kids do not have particular talents would have to be so long that I leave it to others. For my part, all I can be bothered to say is that it's totally, utterly and spectacularly wrong.

More interesting, and getting back to topic, is the question of how that talent is nurtured and developed.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's right at all.

 
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@Bruce Wayne does your graph on welfare spending include the money spent on pensions?

It does I believe, yes, and I'm aware that pensions make up a huge chunk of welfare spending. Nevertheless, the state 'safety net' is larger and more comprehensive now than at any time in British history, and by quite a considerable margin, both in terms of direct welfare payments but also in state delivery of services such as health and education.
 
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.




I'm not bothering with pop psychology.

Get yourself an education rather than a raft of internet clips. It's too important a topic for glibness.

As I tried to suggest, a proper response would involve so many words, G O T would break.

* My last post on this particular aspect of the debate.
 

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