The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[orchard]

That's the spirit mate. You mean Skeptic btw, not Cynic.

Spoken like a true civil servant.

I'll be voting for whoever gives me the best deal. I'm just a selfish cynic, y'see.

 

[davek]

Labour also wouldn't be haemorrhaging votes in 'safe' constituencies if that was the case.

Exactly. They have a pathetic falling/stagnant living standards platform they hope to win an election on in the teeth of a political climate where the defining issues are going to be immigration, greater levels of democracy for English regions, the dismantling of local services. They had to take up those issues in a progressive minded way in order to wrestle the agenda away from the right wing who largely have it as their ground now. They've ducked the fight and left themselves with no constituency to represent.

They've abandoned defence of trade unionism, co-operativism, the local state - all the institutions it used as touchstones with the working class in the past. Now they'll pay for it with their own downfall.

I cant wait. I have no sympathy for those sell out *****. A new leftist party is on it's way. Maybe in the shape of the red/green alliance that came together in parts of Scotland.

 

[magicjuan]

labour showing in the seat they won was awful for a safe seat , how can Mr Ed carry on with this he should step down, for the sake of his party.

Problem is he would be replaced with someone more to the right to try and compete at a time when the party needs to be reclaimed on the basis of principles, not whims and pandering to the press barons

 

[squonk]

ukip if you want, i'm staying awake.

 

[steken1]

Burnham would be a superb choice for Labour. A proper man of the people who seems to have a bit of conviction about his principles.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Which leftish parties are you aiming for Dave? The Nordic countries are predominantly leftish, and they've introduced choice all over the shop. Even the Chinese are pretty much ok with capitalism, they just don't like democracy. It's more Plato's Republic there than the communism of Soviet lore.

The argument always seems to be more state or less state, and no one ever seems to focus on producing a better state.

 

[TheBlueGibbon]

Exactly. They have a pathetic falling/stagnant living standards platform they hope to win an election on in the teeth of a political climate where the defining issues are going to be immigration, greater levels of democracy for English regions, the dismantling of local services. They had to take up those issues in a progressive minded way in order to wrestle the agenda away from the right wing who largely have it as their ground now. They've ducked the fight and left themselves with no constituency to represent.

They've abandoned defence of trade unionism, co-operativism, the local state - all the institutions it used as touchstones with the working class in the past. Now they'll pay for it with their own downfall.

I cant wait. I have no sympathy for those sell out *****. A new leftist party is on it's way. Maybe in the shape of the red/green alliance that came together in parts of Scotland.

I think it's worth differentiating between between the party membership and the leadership pn these issues. The membership still supports the cornerstones of the wider labour movement, as is shown by the various votes at conference in favour of renationalising the railways and Royal Mail and so on, but the leadership can just ignore them anyway as a result of the reforms in the 90s. If this was reformed along the lines suggested by the Campaign for Labour Party democracy then I think the party could recover.

Problem is he would be replaced with someone more to the right to try and compete at a time when the party needs to be reclaimed on the basis of principles, not whims and pandering to the press barons

This is true, there's a reason why it tends to be the Progress wing of the party that is briefing against Ed Miliband.

 

[davek]

Which leftish parties are you aiming for Dave? The Nordic countries are predominantly leftish, and they've introduced choice all over the shop. Even the Chinese are pretty much ok with capitalism, they just don't like democracy. It's more Plato's Republic there than the communism of Soviet lore.

The Nordic countries have been hijacked by right wing parties in recent years, as well you must know. 'Choice' just means the market.

I keep on referring to Scotland, but there's been some good stuff coming out of the movement for independence from umbrella organisations/think tanks like 'Commonweal' - a levelling type of politics based on moving away from the narrow based individualism we're cursed with in this country and beyond. http://www.allofusfirst.org/what-is-common-weal/ There are millions of people who dont bend the knee to the commodification of every activity we take part in. There's a resentment against it and that's something that can be built on. There's elements still within Labour like Compass who are more progressive than its leadership and I reckon its amongst poeple in that we'll see a schism emerge post 2015 election.

 

[davek]

I think it's worth differentiating between between the party membership and the leadership pn these issues. The membership still supports the cornerstones of the wider labour movement, as is shown by the various votes at conference in favour of renationalising the railways and Royal Mail and so on, but the leadership can just ignore them anyway as a result of the reforms in the 90s. If this was reformed along the lines suggested by the Campaign for Labour Party democracy then I think the party could recover.

Yep, that's true enough. I mention above Compass and people like Jon Cruddas who could emerge as a leader for any breakaway Labour group from the neo-liberal leadership and parliamentary party.

 

[ToffeeMark]

I shall be voting for change.

Oh hang on, they're all the same, they're all public school types living off other peoples taxes and they couldn't care less about anyone but themselves.

I'll stay in and make a cheese toastie

 

[magicjuan]

Always wondered what it would take to get people re-engaged, the way that people have campaigned and protested across Europe, in places like Spain and Greece against austerity that we have here too.

is it just the British deference to power or does it need a xenophobia-lite to threaten the established order to get enough motivated

Would show the difference between us and the rest of our European 'cousins'

 

[Tree13]

This is an incredible post. Have you really been taking notice of what the Labour Party have been preaching for a generation or so now?! They've been a party of the political right since the early 1990s...in many instances outflanking the Tories on market based 'solutions'.

'Class resentment', 'bashing the well to do's'....would that they were doing that, they'd still have people like me on board and in a position to kick on to victory if they were the party you portray them as.

@davek in "On another planet" non-shocker.

 

[Tree13]

Pretty much this

Not wanting to make it a competition or anything but I come from as working class a background as you can get; free school meals, council flat, 1 parent family, never got my first my passport till I was in my 20s but Labour don't represent people like me, they never have. What have Labour historically stood for? Class resentment, bashing people who god forbid do well for themselves, keeping people like me poor basically by telling us the state is there to keep us from cradle to grave and if you want something better for yourself and your kids you're a sellout and Tory scum. I've never voted Labour in my life and while I have equally nothing in common with your typical posh Tory, I'd sooner vote for a party who at least have a message I can aspire to, not one obsessed with bashing the other lot for being posh and telling us the rich are the reason you have a crap life

Best non-football post on this site in quite some time. Succinctly put and clinically accurate.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The Nordic countries have been hijacked by right wing parties in recent years, as well you must know. 'Choice' just means the market.

I keep on referring to Scotland, but there's been some good stuff coming out of the movement for independence from umbrella organisations/think tanks like 'Commonweal' - a levelling type of politics based on moving away from the narrow based individualism we're cursed with in this country and beyond. http://www.allofusfirst.org/what-is-common-weal/ There are millions of people who dont bend the knee to the commodification of every activity we take part in. There's a resentment against it and that's something that can be built on. There's elements still within Labour like Compass who are more progressive than its leadership and I reckon its amongst poeple in that we'll see a schism emerge post 2015 election.

That doesn't look that far from what the Nordics have though? I mean they mention participatory budgeting in there, which is great, but giving people the freedom to decide how money is spent is not any different to giving them the freedom to decide how they spend, and who they spend, their education or healthcare money with is it? They also talk about fixing the deficit, and the Swedish actually have it enshrined in law that the state has to run a 2% surplus over the course of a business cycle. They decided that because of the changes in demographics and how they saw that impacting upon tax revenue.

Likewise with their healthcare system. The state has significantly increased spending on healthcare, yet still implemented a small fee each time you see a doctor to try and ensure that only people that really think they need to see one do so. The evidence suggests it seems to work quite well.

Likewise, Finland spend less money and less time on schooling than we do, yet achieve much better results. There are lessons to be learned, much like the participatory budgeting example from Porto Alegre, and I'm not sure that the tribalism that politics often engenders is the best way for those lessons to be heeded.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Always wondered what it would take to get people re-engaged, the way that people have campaigned and protested across Europe, in places like Spain and Greece against austerity that we have here too.

is it just the British deference to power or does it need a xenophobia-lite to threaten the established order to get enough motivated

Would show the difference between us and the rest of our European 'cousins'

The thing is, politics is so often dominated by discussion around the process of something rather than the outcome. I dare say that most people couldn't give a damn how something works, just so long as it does, and if it doesn't work then they have a direct course of action so that they can get something that does.

I mean how many of us could name the bosses of the companies that make our computer or deliver our telephone service? How many could name the strategies those people use to deliver us those things? All most of us care about is whether those products/services are to our satisfaction, and that we can do something about it if they're not.

Yet we're expected both to know who it is that's responsible for healthcare or education or whatever, what their strategy for delivering those services is, and vote for a monopoly supplier of all of them on the proviso that they actually deliver what they promise. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?