The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[Tree13]

I'm sorry I do not have time currently to answer this, I hope to do so later this evening.

For now though, LSE produced a report which studied 5000 families over 15 years which proves conclusively the link between parental wealth and academic achievement.

So for the majority of the population poverty does impact achievement. There are of course exceptions.

5000 families is a pretty small sample size though. We are talking about the education system in a nation of more than 70 million people.

 

[roydo]

5000 families is a pretty small sample size though. We are talking about the education system in a nation of more than 70 million people.

Could have done the survey with 3 families to reach the conclusion that being wealthy means you might get a better education than a Jeremy Kyle "guest".

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Could have done the survey with 3 families to reach the conclusion that being wealthy means you might get a better education than a Jeremy Kyle "guest".

As I said though, I don't think it's a case of being the best of the best. I mean if a family don't value the education they get via the state, would they value it any more if they went to Eton?

 

[roydo]

As I said though, I don't think it's a case of being the best of the best. I mean if a family don't value the education they get via the state, would they value it any more if they went to Eton?

Oh sure, if parents dont give a monkeys, it takes an incredible combination of pupil/teacher relationship to get a result. But if you think about it, rich parents who send their kids to expensive boarding schools from the age of 7 dont exactly get involved, do they?

My idea of parenting is probably old fashioned, but it has seemed to work. With the massive help of a superb STATE system in the area I live. And there is no reason in the world why the success of state schools down here cannot be replicated in any part of the UK. Other than political interference from, sometimes, those with a vested interest to maintain the status quo.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Oh sure, if parents dont give a monkeys, it takes an incredible combination of pupil/teacher relationship to get a result. But if you think about it, rich parents who send their kids to expensive boarding schools from the age of 7 dont exactly get involved, do they?

My idea of parenting is probably old fashioned, but it has seemed to work. With the massive help of a superb STATE system in the area I live. And there is no reason in the world why the success of state schools down here cannot be replicated in any part of the UK. Other than political interference from, sometimes, those with a vested interest to maintain the status quo.

For sure, I think learning stuff is just about the greatest thing possible. A report from the Sutton Trust this year suggested that the free schools are actually doing well, which is promising.

 

[roydo]

For sure, I think learning stuff is just about the greatest thing possible. A report from the Sutton Trust this year suggested that the free schools are actually doing well, which is promising.

I have heard the same. Thing is, one or two didnt work that well at first, so guess who jumps on that?

 

[Clint Planet]

For sure, poverty is a barrier to achievement in the same sense that my genetics is a barrier to me winning the Tour de France. Just because I can't realistically compete with the elite athletes doesn't mean I can't do the best I can with my circumstances though.

No, not in that sense at all. Poverty is a barrier to achievement in the sense of lots of talented cyclists never beng given a chance to try out for the cycling team whilst other, possibly less talented, cyclists get plenty of funding and a fast track to the team.

 

[Clint Planet]

5000 families is a pretty small sample size though. We are talking about the education system in a nation of more than 70 million people.

Maybe LSE didn't know what they were doing.

 

[Coach]

Maybe LSE didn't know what they were doing.

Or UNICEF for that matter.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

No, not in that sense at all. Poverty is a barrier to achievement in the sense of lots of talented cyclists never beng given a chance to try out for the cycling team whilst other, possibly less talented, cyclists get plenty of funding and a fast track to the team.

Might be straining the analogy a little, but with a state education, they are getting a go on a bike though. It might not be a 5 grand speed machine like their private school peers, but they're having a go nonetheless, and whilst that might stop them reaching the pro ranks, that should still enable them to obtain a decent standard if they apply themselves.

Isn't that the whole point of state education?

 

[Clint Planet]

Or UNICEF for that matter.

Arf!

 

[Clint Planet]

Might be straining the analogy a little, but with a state education, they are getting a go on a bike though. It might not be a 5 grand speed machine like their private school peers, but they're having a go nonetheless, and whilst that might stop them reaching the pro ranks, that should still enable them to obtain a decent standard if they apply themselves.

So, not a fair situation, then. You're confirming my point, here.

Isn't that the whole point of state education?

To me, the "whole point" of state education is that it is a manifestation of the ongoing political struggle for equality. The notion of the working class being educated (and therefore being given a better, though not equal, chance in life) in the early 19th century was all but unthinkable. Heaven knows how many academically brilliant men and women spent their lives illiterate or in the service of wealthy buffoons over the centuries.

Of course, even though we now all agree that everyone has a right to an education, the struggle for political equality goes on, hindered by many factors, not least the private school system.

What do you think is the point of state education?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So, not a fair situation, then. You're confirming my point, here.

Twas ever thus though surely? I don't see life as about being the best out of everyone, I see it more as about being the best you can be in your situation. Of course, other people may have it easier than you, that's inevitable, but that doesn't really effect you. I'm not at all religious, but I like this serenity prayer. Think it sums it up nicely.

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference"

Putting as much effort in as you can is something you can change. The wealth or circumstances of others is not.

To me, the "whole point" of state education is that it is a manifestation of the ongoing political struggle for equality. The notion of the working class being educated (and therefore being given a better, though not equal, chance in life) in the early 19th century was all but unthinkable. Heaven knows how many academically brilliant men and women spent their lives illiterate or in the service of wealthy buffoons over the centuries.

Of course, even though we now all agree that everyone has a right to an education, the struggle for political equality goes on, hindered by many factors, not least the private school system.

What do you think is the point of state education?

For me it's about maintaining the inspiration. Each and every one of us is born with a love of learning. As babies trying new things and learning new skills is something that comes naturally. There's a curiosity that's inbuilt in us as human beings. Then, somewhere along the line, that changes and learning becomes a chore, something that has to be done because we're told to, not because it's something we love, and children seem to resent going to school to learn.

Now I'm not pinning this squarely on the shoulders of the schools or their teachers, parents play a big part too imo, but if you maintain the love of learning we have as infants, then everything else will largely fall into place.

As an aside, are you familiar with the Pygmalion Effect?

 

[Clint Planet]

Twas ever thus though surely?

No, life has been changes over time. People now have certain rights that they fought for. They were not benevolently granted by The King or put in place by some Tory thinktank.

I don't see life as about being the best out of everyone, I see it more as about being the best you can be in your situation. Of course, other people may have it easier than you, that's inevitable, but that doesn't really effect you.

But it does. That simply isn't true.

I'm not at all religious, but I like this serenity prayer. Think it sums it up nicely.

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference"

I find it quite repulsive, to be honest. "Give me the wisdom to know my place."

Putting as much effort in as you can is something you can change. The wealth or circumstances of others is not.

Again, this is simply not true. I'm quite amazed at what you're saying here.

For me it's about maintaining the inspiration. Each and every one of us is born with a love of learning. As babies trying new things and learning new skills is something that comes naturally. There's a curiosity that's inbuilt in us as human beings. Then, somewhere along the line, that changes and learning becomes a chore, something that has to be done because we're told to, not because it's something we love, and children seem to resent going to school to learn.

Well, some do, some don't - you are being overly simplistic to suit your argument. And I'd say that children always have a hugely strong belief in fairness. Over time of course, we knock that out of them.

Now I'm not pinning this squarely on the shoulders of the schools or their teachers, parents play a big part too imo, but if you maintain the love of learning we have as infants, then everything else will largely fall into place.

Fingers crossed, eh?

As an aside, are you familiar with the Pygmalion Effect?

Yes, and it would seem I have much higher expectations of my Government (as an agent of the society I live in) than you do.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

No, life has been changes over time. People now have certain rights that they fought for. They were not benevolently granted by The King or put in place by some Tory thinktank.

I think you're striving for everyone to be equal though, and that's never going to happen. I mean even giving people the 'right' of 'free' education or healthcare doesn't mean that they're going to take advantage of it and become learned and healthy. As per the prayer I mentioned, I think you're trying to change something you have absolutely no control over.

But it does. That simply isn't true.

I don't see how. Obviously in a world determined by chaos theory and all that, we all influence each other to an extent, but I simply don't believe that taxing the rich more or banning private schools would suddenly make those that don't value education at the moment, value it.

I find it quite repulsive, to be honest. "Give me the wisdom to know my place."

Repulsive? Really? That seems an extreme reaction to me. Maybe you're applying your own predispositions to the words and taking something from it that doesn't really exist. I'm short for instance. I can dislike that all I like, but I can't change it, so there's no point stressing over it. My fitness levels or my knowledge however, are things I can change, so I do my best to do so.

That's how I read it. How you took that and turned it into a class warfare thing I don't know

Again, this is simply not true. I'm quite amazed at what you're saying here.

It isn't healthy to be so obsessed by what others do or don't have. The only person you can control in life is yourself. Sure, you can influence others, but ultimately what they do is down to them.

Well, some do, some don't - you are being overly simplistic to suit your argument. And I'd say that children always have a hugely strong belief in fairness. Over time of course, we knock that out of them.

I wouldn't say that the fairness thing is knocked out of people. Robert Axelrod has showed pretty conclusively how intrinsic cooperation and fairness is to the way we behave.

Yes, and it would seem I have much higher expectations of my Government (as an agent of the society I live in) than you do.

Oh, I have high expectations of them, but I also appreciate their very real limits. I don't think they can be all things to all people, and I don't think they're the answer to every problem.