The EU deal

[Professor Toffee]

I'd say De Valera pretty much handing the country over to the catholic church post independence was worse.

No id say Cromwell was quite a bit worse, as were the Plantations, the Famine. Notice a common theme?

 

[magicjuan]

An EU state which wishes it never joined the EU because it was the worst thing to happen to it...

Nobody actually 'joined' the EU, it sort of just happened. People voted for participation in the Common Market which crept into the EU by treatise and self justification.

 

[edge]

I know where you're coming from. I'm suffering some serious cognitive dissonance at the moment, I'm leaning towards 'out' whilst knowing that's exactly what that rubber faced cretin Michael Gove wants. How the hell can I share the same opinion on ANYTHING as that moron?

Have a look who is on the other side Osborne ect there as bad , I am not fussed by many politicians, bit at least the ones voting out have s bit of conviction about them.
Vote out get Cameron out

 

[hullefc]

More on TTIP
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/22/ttip-deal-real-serious-risk-nhs-leading-qc

The controversial transatlantic trade deal set to be agreed this year would mean that privatisation of elements of the NHS could be made irreversible for future governments wanting to restore services to public hands, according to a new legal analysis.

The legal advice was prepared by one of the UK’s leading QCs on European law for the Unite trade union, which will reveal on Monday that it has been holding talks with the government about the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) deal between Europe and the US.

Unite believes the government has been keeping Britain in the dark over the impact of the deal and argues the NHS should be excluded from the trade deal. The government dismissed the idea that TTIP poses a threat as “irresponsible and false”.

TTIP would give investors new legal rights, which extend beyond both UK and EU law as well as NHS contracts, according to Michael Bowsher QC, a former chair of the Bar Council’s EU law committee who was tasked by Unite to prepare the advice.

Bowsher said he had concluded that the deal poses “a real and serious risk” to future UK government decision making regarding the NHS.

“We consider that the solution to the problems TTIP poses to the NHS – and which is likely to provide the greatest protection – is for the NHS to be excluded from the agreement by way of a blanket exception contained within the main text of TTIP,” Bowsher said.

In the most explicit warning from a figure of prominence about the potential threat to the NHS from the deal – which may yet prove a rallying point for leftwing out campaigners in the EU referendum – he also warned that it could allow private companies with links to NHS contracts to win higher levels of compensation through bypassing domestic courts.

He also said that TTIP’s procurement rules could force the NHS to contract out services it wants to keep in house or spin off them off as “mutuals”

Unite, which has already held a series of high-level meetings with officials from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) and with the minister for trade, Francis Maude, will present Bowsher’s advice to the government on Tuesday.

Unite’s assistant general secretary, Gail Cartmail, said: “The UK government has no right to allow EU bureaucrats to negotiate away our ability to control the future of our NHS. David Cameron has the power to exclude the NHS from the trade deal – he must act and prevent the irreversible sale of our NHS.

Campaigners have already accused the government of blocking access to legal adviceshowing its impact on the health service and the extent to which private health companies could sue the government using a secret tribunal system if a Whitehall policy change were to hit their profits.

Unite said that Maude has admitted to having legal advice concerning the TTIP’s potential impact on the NHS but has blocked a freedom of information request to obtain the advice, citing “legal professional privilege”.

A BIS spokesperson said: “The NHS is under no threat whatsoever from the TTIP deal or any other trade and investment agreement. It cannot force the UK to privatise public services or prevent it from regulating in the public interest and any suggestion to the contrary is both irresponsible and false.

“It will remain up to the UK government and devolved administrations to decide how to run publicly funded health services, including whether private companies should be involved. Where a service has previously been provided by a private provider, this is not irreversible.”

The further privatisation of the NHS will happen whether the UK is in the EU or not.

"Bowsher said he had concluded that the deal poses “a real and serious risk” to future UK government decision making regarding the NHS.

“We consider that the solution to the problems TTIP poses to the NHS – and which is likely to provide the greatest protection – is for the NHS to be excluded from the agreement by way of a blanket exception contained within the main text of TTIP,” Bowsher said".

Boris Johnson, Gove, Ian Duncan Smith and all the other Tories that want out, have not once shouted for the NHS to be exempt from TTIP. Which would be a sign that they wanted the UK to have sovereignty/determine the future, of the NHS by the UK parliament. If the UK leaves the EU, those Tories will push for the further privatisation of the NHS, and wouldn't give a second thought of offering the further privatisation of the NHS - opening up the health 'market' - to US health companies in any trade negotiations with the US, thereby giving up sovereignty or the UK parliament to determine the future direction of health care in this country.

Those same Tories shouted the loudest for the UK financial services to be exempt from EU regulations. But have not said a dickie bird about the NHS exemption.

It goes without saying that if the UK remains in the EU, and TTIP is signed, Cameron will quicken the pace for the further privatisation of the NHS and use the TTIP agreement to get his wish for a privatised health care system in this country.

TTIP is the biggest threat at the moment to UK 'sovereignty' but any trade deal with another country always runs the risk of having elements of losing some form of 'sovereignty'. One of the parts in the UK's trade agreement with China, was to allow more Chinese nationals into the UK by relaxing visa restrictions.

Trade agreements are a negotiation. If the UK wants something for a section of the economy, whether in the EU or not, they will offer 'sweeteners' and that could be anything, including giving up the sovereign right to control parts of the UK economy or industries, intelectual rights, environmental issues, food safety etc..

The UK government will not impose sanctions on Chinese steel, and will use the EU/free trade as the excuse, because the Chinese are investing £billions in the UK. They will not 'protect' the UK Steel industry because it doesn't suit them. Gove, Johnson, Duncan Smith - the so called champions of 'the UK should be able to decide its own future without interference for others', have not said anything about losing the Steel industry. They are all in agreement with Cameron concerning this element of the UK economy - let it go to the wall. They all sing with one voice for the 'protection' of the UK financial sector against those 'unelected EU bureaucrats'.

The big landowners in the UK love the EU and the Common Agricultural Policy as it boosts their coffers. If the UK leaves the EU they will demand 'compensation' for a loss of 'earnings' which can only come from the UK taxpayer.

As people have pointed out the great transformation of Northern Cities have come about by EU money. And not money from the UK treasury, which wouldn't and still doesn't give enough money to the North. If the UK leaves the EU the treasury will not give the North the the same amount of money that the EU gives.

Whether the UK stays in the EU or leaves will not stop the rich looking after their interests at the expense of the working class. And that includes giving up 'sovereignty' of anything as long as it looks after their interests.

I, like thousands of other UK nationals, will be at the Euros - I wonder if that is why Cameron has chosen that date so a lot of those likely to vote to leave - a generalisation I know - will be out of the country and/or be gripped by Euro 'fever'. The vote didn't have to be in June but Cameron chose that date to boost his chances of winning the vote. If he loses there will be a general election as he will be a dead man walking.

If I get my vote I'll be voting to leave.

 

[Lee Smith]

Have a look who is on the other side Osborne ect there as bad , I am not fussed by many politicians, bit at least the ones voting out have s bit of conviction about them.
Vote out get Cameron out

Oh definitely. There's some right horrible characters on both sides! I just hope the upcoming debates focus on the issues and not the personalities

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

I know where you're coming from. I'm suffering some serious cognitive dissonance at the moment, I'm leaning towards 'out' whilst knowing that's exactly what that rubber faced cretin Michael Gove wants. How the hell can I share the same opinion on ANYTHING as that moron?

In fairness to gove, as justice sec. he's trying to tidy up the cack left behind by the other (dangerously psychotic) cretin, grayling.

Up to gove if he wants to see his department go into meltdown with all the legal re-working leaving the EU will bring.

 

[peteblue]

It has everything to do with me.

This is a discussion forum. I'll state my view same as everyone else whether you like it or not.

I meant the republic of Ireland not you.....

 

[peteblue]

At least I tried to be balanced, which is what you asked for.

If you see no benefits, at all, then fine.

I did mate, the trade bit.......

 

[Lee Smith]

In fairness to gove, as justice sec. he's trying to tidy up the cack left behind by the other (dangerously psychotic) cretin, grayling.

Up to gove if he wants to see his department go into meltdown with all the legal re-working leaving the EU will bring.

My opinion of him was formed during his tenure as Education Secretary

 

[peteblue]

What has the EU ever done for us hey......

57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Wow, fantastic list, I didn't realise that we owe everything to the EU for our beaches and air. I'm staggered that the USA isn't banging down the door to join. So after 50 years and untold Zillions spent, that's it, cheaper mobile roaming and I particularly like the 'support for democracy'. The claimed 'greatest achievement' of peace within Europe is an out and out lie. NATO, and NATO alone has kept the peace in Europe, well that and the fact that now Germany control everything they have no need to start another war.............

 

[peteblue]

If the vote is to remain then it will be assumed by Europe we want full intergration.

The EU will be all over this. If we vote to remain, that's it, game over, so long the UK........

 

[peteblue]

Nobody actually 'joined' the EU, it sort of just happened. People voted for participation in the Common Market which crept into the EU by treatise and self justification.

And this is the worst part of it. I voted to join the European Economic Community EEC. What we have now has been put together stealthily by the Eurocrats over the decades without once letting us have a vote. I did not vote to join what now exists and nor I would imagine did the majority of voters back then.

 

[neil999]

yeah some of that good stuff could have happened without the EU, it might not have done but then we dont know...its all unknowns really isnt it..

 

[Donald Twain]

yeah some of that good stuff could have happened without the EU, it might not have done but then we dont know...its all unknowns really isnt it..

Post of the day right here.

 

[neil999]

And this is the worst part of it. I voted to join the European Economic Community EEC. What we have now has been put together stealthily by the Eurocrats over the decades without once letting us have a vote. I did not vote to join what now exists and nor I would imagine did the majority of voters back then.

bet he was french