The EU deal

[Milk]

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party
18 April at 03:22·
E.U
The loony party dosn't have any policy on this.. its a free vote..

Blimey. Now I'm REALLY confused

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party
18 April at 03:22·
E.U
The loony party dosn't have any policy on this.. its a free vote..

Blimey. Now I'm REALLY confused

I voted them once because one of their policies was to let us go skiing on the EU butter mountain.

 

[Milk]

I voted them once because one of their policies was to let us go skiing on the EU butter mountain.

One of their policies for the recent Welsh Assembly Elections was to feed the dragon as it's looking a bit thin.

AND the Party came 9th on the list (of 13) beating the Welsh Communists and a host of independents

VOTE LOONY. You know it makes sense

 

[dholliday]

Good post, mate.

I honestly don't think it's that at all, at least not for me. We have a world where Trump may well become president of the most influential democracy in the world. Various countries throughout Europe are either teetering towards populism or are actually embracing it, whether that's Austria lurching right this week, or the Greeks threatening to go even more leftwards as talk of Grexit rears its head again.

Trump may not be the bogeyman many fear if he's able to calm the disastrous US foreign policy.

And it's just as difficult to judge the other populist regimes until they get a fair go at power. But instinctively I'm also a bit concerned by any ruling party that identifies too far to one side of the political spectrum.

In other words, if a nation as large and influential as Britain says it wants to go towards a world of independence and isolation, we may have America thinking the same, and a whole load of European nations buoyed by this and doing likewise. It sounds terrible, but there is a real possibility that it could happen.

It doesn't sound terrible, to be fair. "isolation" is a word I wouldn't use, but we'd both use "independence".

As regular readers of politico threads on here will no doubt testify, I'm a small government guy, so am in no way keen on being governed from another country, but the prospect of Europe breaking apart amidst an increasingly isolationist world scares me. We can only improve the lives of people in a relatively stable environment, and us leaving the EU would do nothing at all to create such a stable environment, especially as statistically we're due another recession soon. This hasn't been mentioned much in the debate, but Cameron raised it as a concern this week, and it's heartening to see it being raised.

What's the link between a UK recession and voting out of the EU? There's been a few scare stories from the IMF among others in the media this last week, I'm not convinced personally.

The other thing that I think supports the EU is the increasingly global nature of life. People move freely around the world, we trade freely around the world, we consume information freely around the world (mostly). I suspect we would all say that's a beautiful thing, but to enable that we need globally agreed standards and agreements. The Internet, for instance, thrives because it uses a globally recognised standard. Driverless cars are likely to require similar standards, as might things like genetic data. So the idea that if we leave the EU we'll be absolved from any kind of global rules or regulation seems rather naive to me.

Agree with everything apart from the last bit: leaving the EU doesn't have to mean absolving oneself of any global rules or regulation.

For me, those are good enough reasons without trying the fools errand of trying to provide a monetary figure that says how much we gain/lose by being a member. When you simplify things like that, you usually get it wrong. Dangerous ground.

Also agreed.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

What's the link between a UK recession and voting out of the EU? There's been a few scare stories from the IMF among others in the media this last week, I'm not convinced personally.

History tells us that when our backs are against the wall (especially financially) we often turn to those who are willing to pin the blame on an external party. For the populists, this is usually migrants (for those on the right) or the Troika (for those on the left). I'm not sure either is right, but it's an easy trap to fall into as it absolves us from any blame or responsibility for our own situation.

History also suggests when we pin the blame for our situation on others, whether that's minorities in our own countries or on external bodies entirely then it seldom ends well.

For me, Europe is an infinitely better place now than it was 50 years ago. I love that we live and work with and amongst so many of our European brethren. It makes life infinitely richer and more rewarding. Maybe in a different time I'd feel differently about this, but the unity that has so benefited Europe over the past 25 years is incredibly fragile at the moment, and I would feel deeply ashamed if it was us that set its destruction in motion.

 

[dholliday]

History tells us that when our backs are against the wall (especially financially) we often turn to those who are willing to pin the blame on an external party. For the populists, this is usually migrants (for those on the right) or the Troika (for those on the left). I'm not sure either is right, but it's an easy trap to fall into as it absolves us from any blame or responsibility for our own situation.

History also suggests when we pin the blame for our situation on others, whether that's minorities in our own countries or on external bodies entirely then it seldom ends well.

For me, Europe is an infinitely better place now than it was 50 years ago. I love that we live and work with and amongst so many of our European brethren. It makes life infinitely richer and more rewarding. Maybe in a different time I'd feel differently about this, but the unity that has so benefited Europe over the past 25 years is incredibly fragile at the moment, and I would feel deeply ashamed if it was us that set its destruction in motion.

The migrants topic isn't as clearcut as it was only a year ago, especially in light of the latest wave post-August. It's an extremely complex subject and discussing it with regards to important choices like the EU vote can be a case of treading on eggshells, especially as a certain religion plays a significant part in the discussion. And then you've got the afore-mentioned US foreign policy (in league with EU) exacerbating the issue, and Merkel acting like she's the Emperor of Europe.

Suffice to say I understand those who would vote Exit because of concerns over migrants, whereas a year ago I would've dismissed them. Blatant media propaganda has played a big part in hardening people's stances.


Other than that I agree with your post, I hope this inclusive European ideal doesn't become a lost idealism. If it does, I won't blame the Exit voters.

 

[peteblue]

History tells us that when our backs are against the wall (especially financially) we often turn to those who are willing to pin the blame on an external party. For the populists, this is usually migrants (for those on the right) or the Troika (for those on the left). I'm not sure either is right, but it's an easy trap to fall into as it absolves us from any blame or responsibility for our own situation.

History also suggests when we pin the blame for our situation on others, whether that's minorities in our own countries or on external bodies entirely then it seldom ends well.

For me, Europe is an infinitely better place now than it was 50 years ago. I love that we live and work with and amongst so many of our European brethren. It makes life infinitely richer and more rewarding. Maybe in a different time I'd feel differently about this, but the unity that has so benefited Europe over the past 25 years is incredibly fragile at the moment, and I would feel deeply ashamed if it was us that set its destruction in motion.

History doesn't tell us anything of the sort. History tells us that when our backs are to the wall we come together and face whatever is coming towards us.

I agree that Europe is infinitely better than it was, because of the sacrifice of many from our islands. Unity of Europe is wonderful if they want it. But we neither need it or want it. We are quite fine on our own yet still working with friendly countries within Europe.

The USA, Great Britain and it's Empire, together with Russia, stopped the rot within Europe. NATO has kept the peace since. Leaving the EU is probably the best thing that could happen to Europe if it makes the EU rethink what it's doing. We have a situation where our PM is saying it will cause WW3, but apparently the EU won't change any part of it's treaties to stop this, therefore they don't believe it......

 

[peteblue]

The migrants topic isn't as clearcut as it was only a year ago, especially in light of the latest wave post-August. It's an extremely complex subject and discussing it with regards to important choices like the EU vote can be a case of treading on eggshells, especially as a certain religion plays a significant part in the discussion. And then you've got the afore-mentioned US foreign policy (in league with EU) exacerbating the issue, and Merkel acting like she's the Emperor of Europe.

Suffice to say I understand those who would vote Exit because of concerns over migrants, whereas a year ago I would've dismissed them. Blatant media propaganda has played a big part in hardening people's stances.


Other than that I agree with your post, I hope this inclusive European ideal doesn't become a lost idealism. If it does, I won't blame the Exit voters.

Leave, has nothing to do with migrants. We simply would be better off outside without the EU dictating our laws. Only 10% of our GDP is dealing with the EU, yet 100% of our businesses have to obey EU law. It's a nonsense and we need to say thanks, but no thanks........

 

[dholliday]

Leaving the EU is probably the best thing that could happen to Europe if it makes the EU rethink what it's doing.

This is a valid point...agreed.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

History doesn't tell us anything of the sort. History tells us that when our backs are to the wall we come together and face whatever is coming towards us.

So the aftermath of the Great Depression was a continent coming together? I wonder why it is that most supporters of populist groups tend to be less equipped to cope with a globalised world and are therefore clinging to groups who blame their troubles on capitalism or migration?

Unity of Europe is wonderful if they want it. But we neither need it or want it. We are quite fine on our own yet still working with friendly countries within Europe.

Let me tell you, I have yet to speak to a single EU citizen living and working in Britain that would regard Brexit as in any way friendly to them. To a (wo)man, they have all said that such a move would be a statement that they are neither wanted nor welcome in this country.

I'm sure those still living on the continent will feel differently though and be quite happy to carry on as though nothing has happened.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Suffice to say I understand those who would vote Exit because of concerns over migrants, whereas a year ago I would've dismissed them. Blatant media propaganda has played a big part in hardening people's stances.

Well yeah, it's messy, and things in the Visegrad are not particularly appetising at the moment. You'll get Czech's who cry about Nicholas Winton wanting nothing whatsoever to do with those fleeing to their own country because of war, and it's hard to get away from the fact that it's because those doing the fleeing are brown and of a different religion. It'd be nice if we remembered now and then that we're all human beings and get over these perceived differences between us.

 

[dholliday]

it's hard to get away from the fact that it's because those doing the fleeing are brown and of a different religion. It'd be nice if we remembered now and then that we're all human beings and get over these perceived differences between us.

That's what I meant earlier, it's become far more complex than that. Sometimes the differences aren't perceived and are actually significant.

I live in Germany, and things here are moving in a direction not conducive to a 'we are the world' ideal.

 

[peteblue]

So the aftermath of the Great Depression was a continent coming together? I wonder why it is that most supporters of populist groups tend to be less equipped to cope with a globalised world and are therefore clinging to groups who blame their troubles on capitalism or migration?



Let me tell you, I have yet to speak to a single EU citizen living and working in Britain that would regard Brexit as in any way friendly to them. To a (wo)man, they have all said that such a move would be a statement that they are neither wanted nor welcome in this country.

I'm sure those still living on the continent will feel differently though and be quite happy to carry on as though nothing has happened.

I'm talking about WW2 not some great depression. We have never tried to push blame for our own failings on others, apart from G Brown saying that 2008 started in America, but certainly not any minorities.....

Brexit may not seem 'friendly' to other EU citizens, but why should it. It's for Britons to determine what is best for Britain, and why should we always have to consider everybody else. They can vote for their own future. We are welcoming to most people and always have been. Do not try to visit the sins of Germany etc on ourselves....

If those in Europe do not wish to continue friendly relations with a country that has a trading deficit with them, that has saved them twice in war, that seeks to change the damaging direction that the EU is taking, and provides a nuclear umbrella with the USA for their defence, then they can say goodbye and have a great life under Putin.......

 

[Dymak]

One of their policies for the recent Welsh Assembly Elections was to feed the dragon as it's looking a bit thin.

AND the Party came 9th on the list (of 13) beating the Welsh Communists and a host of independents

VOTE LOONY. You know it makes sense

I've always wondered how a party that promised to bring in a three day weekend would do? It may sound a bit strange, but I think a lot of people would vote for that.

 

[rascal]

I've always wondered how a party that promised to bring in a three day weekend would do? It may sound a bit strange, but I think a lot of people would vote for that.

Would we work 2 hours longer on those four working days?